Bf-109 Loss 07-Sep-1943 over Memmingham

[Richard Mills]

Theo Boiten's excellent 'Nachtjagd War Diaries Volume 1' records on page 262:

"Whilst on their way in to bomb Munchen, the air gunners in JD166 (Handley Page Halifax 10 Sqn) successfully beat off a Bf-109 that attacked the Halifax 3 times before they finally shot the Wild Boar night fighter down to crash at Memmingham (pilot safe)"

Can anyone help in the identification of the unit, aircraft and luftwaffe pilot involved in this incident?

Any help whatsoever will be very well received indeed.

Regards Richard.

[Matti Salonen]

I have a vague note, that Geschwader T.O. of JG 300 Hptm Friedrich-Karl Müller was shot down and wounded in Munich area on that day. Unfortunately no other info and also no note on source.

Matti

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

I have a vague note, that Geschwader T.O. of JG 300 Hptm Friedrich-Karl Müller was shot down and wounded in Munich area on that day. Unfortunately no other info and also no note on source.
Matti

Matti

Thank you very much indeed for that, it is something to be going on at least.

The reason I have asked this question is because last weekend I was lucky enough to spend some time with the mid-upper gunner of Handley-Page Halifax JD166, who asked if I would be able to research the identity of the Bf-109 which he and his rear-gunner were able to shoot down following 3 attacks.

After meeting this man, I know that it would mean a great deal to him and I still hopeful of finding the information to be able to pass on to him.

Hopeful in anticipation.

Regards Richard.

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

I have a vague note, that Geschwader T.O. of JG 300 Hptm Friedrich-Karl Müller was shot down and wounded in Munich area on that day. Unfortunately no other info and also no note on source.
Matti

Matti

I have just located mention of the following Bf-109 loss:

Bf 109G-10/AS
JG300
Kennummer - 3 +
Flugzeugfuhrer - MÜLLER, Friedrich-Karl 'Nasen'
Remarks - 'Schragemusik' 20mm installation; extra large drop tank
Reference - IPMS-D 2/79, 9/78

Unfortunatly no date is listed and I am not sure as to what the reference actually refers to?

Am I close or driving up a blind alley?

Regards Richard.

[Matti Salonen]

Not the same, because Bf 109G-10/AS was not manufactured in 1943, but late 1944. On 07-Sep-1943 his aircraft must have been Bf 109G-6, which type at that time was used by I/JG 300. Stab JG 300 had FW 190s, but my info states, that Müller flew an aircraft from I/JG 300.
Sorry, but I cannot give a definite proof.

Matti

[Horst Kube]

[quote=Richard Mills;132814]Theo Boiten's excellent 'Nachtjagd War Diaries Volume 1' records on page 262:

"Whilst on their way in to bomb Munchen, the air gunners in JD166 (Handley Page Halifax 10 Sqn) successfully beat off a Bf-109 that attacked the Halifax 3 times before they finally shot the Wild Boar night fighter down to crash at Memmingham (pilot safe)"

Hi Richard,

the crash should have been at Memmingen (not Memmingham), around 70 miles west from Munich.

Cheers, Horst

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi,

the aircraft apparently sustained less than 10% damage, as it is not mentioned in the loss record:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=120551

Also, it seems that the injuries to Friedrich Müller were very light or none at all, as his status was changed to not injured about four months after the incident.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Richard Mills]

Gents

I really appreciate your help with this matter.

Can I take it that there are no other possible losses recorded in the Luftwaffe QM returns which might of been the Bf-109 aircraft which was beat off by the Handley Page Halifax air-gunners?

If not, and it turns out that the aircraft was indeed piloted by Hauptmann Friedrich-Karl Muller flying in I./JG300, than it is certainly a welcome piece of information indeed.

If anyone can confirm for sure that it is indeed the likely identity which I am seeking, then I shall inform the air-gunner and it will no doubt be of enormous interest to him.

Thank you again.

Regards Richard.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Horst/Matti/Andreas

Checking Jean-Yves Lorent's JG 300 book, he places "Nasen" Müller in Stab./JG 300 this night. This automatically makes him piloting a Fw 190A-6, since that is what the Stab was equipped with.

He has looked in the same files as Andreas (and most certainly Matti), and cannot come up with any true loss (no aircraft mentioned, no damage report etc). The strange thing is that he then thinks the aircraft was a 100% loss, while Andreas is much more logic to my mind and believes the damage was so slight that no loss report was actually made. Hadn't it been for the "scratch" received by Müller there would not have been any report at all.

That night two more Bf 109G were reported as damaged, but no WNr known, flown by Lt Walter Harjes (1./JG 300) and Uffz Alfons Zeder (2./JG 300). If one of those had anything to do with JD166 is something I don't wish to speculate about.

B Rgds
Stig

[Richard Mills]

Gents

Thank you all very much for your input into this matter, it is greatly apprecaited.

Can I take it as it stands now that:

If it was a Bf-109 machine that was beat off by JD166 it was flown by either Lt Walter Harjes (1./JG 300) or Uffz Alfons Zeder (2./JG 300).

If is was indeed Hauptmann Friedrich-Karl "Nasen" Müller, then he would of been flying in Stab./JG 300 in a Fw 190A-6 machine, which suffered less than 10% damage as a result of the action.

Have I interpreted the scenario correctly?

Regards Richard.