Spitfire P9550

[Chris Goss]

The above was lost 7 Nov 41 whilst with 1401 Flt and flown by Plt Off Frank Wilson. The pilot's body was recovered so does anyone know where this aircraft crashed?

[Revi16]

Not sure if this wil help, but found these.
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...401-Met-Flight

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...-41-Eastbourne

[dp_burke]

if you use freebmd.org.uk, you wil find that his death is registered in Eastbourne district, Sussex.

His death cert will indicate if he was recovered from the sea or a crash site.

Does this message forum thread assist, indicates a crash at sea near/visible from AA site.
http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=57.15

[paulmcmillan]

Chris

What is your reference that P/O FRANK CLIVE GEORGE WILSON was pilot of P9550?

This has been an outstanding mystery


http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...401-Met-Flight

His death registered at Eastbourne with suggests it may have been washed up

The opinion is that Wilson was on the 23 Sqn Havoc BD124

However the ORB for November is now available for downloadfrom National Archves so may reveal fate once and for all!

Paul

[Chris Goss]

Paul

I have a photo of P9550 whilst with 1 PRU. Its fate was to be lost with 1401 Flt on 7 Nov 41. I then spoke today with the AHB who said that Wilson was lost with 1401 Flt flying Spitfire P9350-source is the Cas Card I believe. Obviously a typo for the serial

Dennis

Thanks for your input. The Cas Card made no sense as to where he crashed

Revi

Thanks

Chris

[rafcommands]

Crew of the Havoc crashed 17:00 ish off Worthing was
(Results of Work since April 2011)

Sgt D Chapman RCAF
Sgt J R Sullivan RCAF
F/O N Cox
F/Sgt D J Parr

Form 78 confirms P9550 as lost with No.1401 Flight. Bircham Newton ORB makes no mention of the flight but does list aborted sortie by Blenheim of No.1403 Flight.

RNLI records confirm loss off Eastbourne
NOVEMBER 7TH. - EASTBOURNE, SUSSEX.
A British aeroplane had been seen to crash into the sea, but a search, in which an Admiralty boat and aeroplanes took part, found nothing. - Rewards, £16 8s. 3d. (Source: RNLI Records of Service 1939-46)

So if the casualty card gives P9550 then I would put Wilson as body recovered off Eastborne sometime after 7th.

Regards
Ross

[Roundway]

Chris/Ross

Wilson's death was recorded in The Times on 13 December 1941, It reads:

"In November 1941, on active service. In loving memory of our dear son Clive (P/O F C G Wilson), younger son of Mr and Mrs George Wilson of 20, Cranley Gardens, SW 7. No letters please."

I'd not found a previous entry for him in the Casualty Lists, so I suspect his family had only just been notified that his body had been found.

Brian

[Observer1940]

Hello Chris and All

Unfortunately, I have not been following this posting and I am no Meteorological expert!

However, I have noticed a contributor on the Ross Neill's Forum mentioned that there was no 1401 Met Flight ORB before around 1942.

There is definitely an ORB for a "Meteorological Flight" as I have a photo of the page for 28.7.1940 to 22.8.1940 for the "Meteorological Flight" then based at Aldergrove (taken last month) and in AIR 29/866.

Correct me if I am wrong, as my memory is poor, but in a Bomber Command file, the other additional Met Flights were not proposed until late 1940.

Bircham Newton
According to a selection of other photos taken at random, the ORB volume indicates that page 1 of 1403 Met Flight operated from BIRCHAM NEWTON 1st April [and somebody has entered in pencil "1941" on the ORB page].

I have a photo of the first Form 541 page (in the ORB volume) as being "1403 Met Flt" "1/4/41".

2. Are researchers aware that it was an offence under the Official Secrets Act to remove pages EVEN Appendices and Maps etc., from ORBs. I have the relevant official reference to this, if you require it. If the ORB is not listed on the TNA catalogue and indexes and you know a Unit was in existence, then you should lodge an official written complaint with the TNA at Kew, after checking the ORB/s held first!

It was so serious, that an "Original" and a "Duplicate" ORB was made and one of the sets had to be forwarded to the Air Ministry once a month. Hence the feint fold lines in some ORB pages to fold it into a quarter size, to get it into the envelope.

The Unit/s had to keep their copies in a safe along with the Station HQ ORB, as I have references to a Station being bombed and reference to the recovery of their ORBs and other secret and confidential documents from the Station safe.

Regards Mark

[Roundway]

Mark,

I think it's best that I amplify the reply I gave on RAFCommands at http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...t-Flight/page2

The original Met Flight was formed at the behest of the Met Office at Eastchurch during November 1924, to make twice-daily vertical ascents above the base airfield to record temperature and humidity aloft, together with details about cloud and icing. This information was of great value to meteorologists as it was not avaliable from any other source. This unit moved to Duxford in Jan 1925, then Mildenhall in November 1936, each time being known by the station name. The unit was always very small (two pilots) and the work repetitive, two flights daily; and I suspect that because of this it was not considered necessary to maintain a diary.

If memory serves correctly even those flying units that did maintain an ORB were not that conscientious in so doing.

Mildenhall Met Flight was renamed 401 Met Flight in Jan or Feb 1941, and 1401 Met Flight on 1 April. It moved to Bircham Newton during October.

During all this time its role remained the same, twice daily ascents over the base airfield, and it seems as though because of the repetitiveness of the task it was still considered unnecessary to open an ORB.

This state of affairs was obviously still the case when P9550 was sent off on what was the first PAMPA sortie. Its tragic end appears to have put a dampener on the idea for a while. 1401 Met Flight absorbed 1403 Met Flight in Feb 1942 to become a much larger unit flying a greater variety of operations.

!403 Met Flight, formed for maritime met reconnaissance, HAD maintained an ORB when it became operational on 1 April 1941, since its operations were conducted away from base. Consequently the new 1401 Met Flight was very much larger and had a considerably expanded role, and for that reason started an ORB.

!402 Met Flight had started life as the Aldergrove Met Flight in November 1936; it was renamed 402 Met Flight in Jan 1942, then 1402 in March. This unit did maintain an ORB from its formation, although the daily entries rarely varied.

I'd appreciate the reference of the Bomber Command file to which you refer. Whilst I don't doubt that Bomber Command was very worried about forecasts for Germany I'd very much like to have sight of the documentation.

For the record the Met Office had been pressing for maritime met reconnaissance units from the beginning of the war, but the answer was always the same - lack of both aircraft and aircraft with sufficient range to make such an exercise worthwhile. Maritime met reconnaissance units were approved on 4 October 1940, but they did not start forming until March 1941 (1403, 1404 and 1405). Bomber Command appears to have had no input in these units, but, again, should there be more I can add to my archive a file reference would be really useful.

I am confident in my own mind that the files you appear to be accusing people of removing, never existed - which has always been a problem for those of us interested in the Met Flights.

Brian

[Observer1940]

Hello Brian

Regarding the additional Met Flights, may I refer you to:-

"Royal Air Force Meteorological Policy Committee. Minutes of the 9th Meeting held at the Air Ministry on Friday, 8th November, 1940."

"Item 8. Weather Reconnaissances Flights."
[Paragraph] "55. D.M.O. stated that it had been agreed that three Meteorological Flights should be established for carrying out daily flights:-
(a) over the North Sea,
(b) some 500 miles N.W. of the British Isles,
(c) some 500 miles S.W. of the British Isles."
...

[Paragraph] 56. goes on to propose that flights should be provided for this purpose at Bircham Newton, Aldergrove and St Eval.

I have AIR 20.4031 listed for the above.

According to other documents in the various TNA Series and other official records (in private hands) it is apparent that some Commands and Units had been attempting to get their own Met information before an operation. As they were being admonished to speak to Met first before attempting their own weather reconnaissance flights, in order to look out for certain weather characteristics etc.

Until I go through all my information to set out my forthcoming book, I don't think I will be able to find the Bomber Command reference quickly.

Regarding references to poor Meteorological records about the weather during WW2, the Meteorological Office was heavily criticised in a censored draft around 1950 for the wholesale destruction of a wealth of data, which had led to a greater understanding and effects of the weather during the war. The accusation was that RAF flights were authorised on Met. Office information, which should either not have been authorised, or should have been shorter flights, in order to get the RAF aircraft safely back on the ground, before the weather worsened here.

Regards Mark