Walter Ohlrogge (5/JG3) and missing claims

[focusfocus]

Hello all
According J.Prien in JVD 6/I,between his second claim (25/06/41) and his thirty-ninth (22/10/41),"it's proven that 2 claims ae missing"

Problems:in the attached list,4 are missing! and no 2
Another "oddity":his first claim is 16/08/40 (J.Prien) nicht Bestätigt...so why the numbered 1 ?According Obermaier,his first is 28/08/40...no mention of a claim that day by J.Prien.

Obviously something is wrong (?)...but what?

Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

I'll look into this for you.

The earlier typed-out mikrofilms for each staffel are basically photographs of A4 sheets, not all staffel's have survived, and they don't run in order, but are numbered, so could run like 1,4,2,3,5,7,6 e.t.c, but being numbered you can workout if any are missing.......and sometimes a sheet is missing. With the daily hand written mikrofilms the claims have anerk numbers for each staffel, so again it's possible to workout if anythings missing.

Regarding Obermaier/Prien, Obermaier's work was the best of it's time, but with the mikrofilms cracks are showing. Some pilots included unconfirmed claims it their claims, others did not, hence differences in totals. The mikrofilm entries used by Prien in his books in modern times are almost faultless, I would say one in 5000 may be incorrect, this is excluding those for II./JG2 in Africa, I would say they were mis-sorted in excel as all the details are there, but the pilots to each claim are incorrect.

Obermaier used abschuüßeliste, flugbücher, Abschüßtafel and even wartime communications i.e Hartmann's 200th on 26th February 1944 not 2nd March 1944. He also gave some pilots a total that was actually taken from the points system.

Personally I give Ohlrogge sixty-five confirmed claims all in Russia between 25th June 1941 and 5th September 1942, after this date his wounds seem to have kept him from further combat, but he did train others.

There is no proof there is two missing, certainly not two confirmed. Often claims are mentions in communications or in writing a few days later than the actual claim, and it get duplicated as two claims.

Basically don't believe Obermaier's totals, and especially those in the West within a grand total.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

5./JG3's earlier typed-out mikrofilms are complete, claims for 1939/1940 are:-

31st May 1940 Breguet 690 1830 hrs Josef Heinzeller
3rd June Hurricane 0840 hrs Horst Buddenhagen
3rd June Hurricane 0845 hrs Hermann Freitag
5th June Breguet 690 1645 hrs Hordt Gotz
6th June Morane 1110 hrs Alfred Heckmann
6th June Spitfire 1110 hrs Herbert Kijewski
7th June Hawk 36 0625 hrs Werner Voigt
7th June Spitfire 1907 hrs Kijewski
7th June Battle 1908 hrs Heinzeller
7th June Battle 1910 hrd Konrad Nelleskamp
7th June Battle 1915 hrs Freitag
13th June Blenheim 1645 hrs Nelleskamp
14th June Potez 63 1845 hrs Fritz Mias
17th June Potez 63 1735 hrs Mias
16th August Spitfire 1320 hrs Heinzeller
26th August Spitfire 1320 hrs Horst Buddenhagen
28th August Hurricane 1720 hrs Nelleskamp
28th August Defiant 1725 hrs Heinzeller
20th September Spitfire 1220 hrs Heckmann
27th September Hurricane 1330 hrs Buddenhagen

Then there is the daily A.S.M hand written mikrofilm, of interest are those for 16th August 1940:-

16th August Spitfire 1320 hrs Heckmann 6000 metres altitude
16th August Spitfire 1328 hrs Buddenhagen 5000 metres
29th August Spitfire 1640 hrs Buddenhagen 3000 metres
5th September Hurricane 1625 hrs Kijewski 6000 metres v.n.e-a.s.m

Seems they had problems with there claims of 16th August, I would guess that ultimately Heckmann and Buddenhagen got theirs confirmed, and Ohlrogge didn't, but who knows.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[focusfocus]

Hello Johannes

Sorry for the delay
If my informations are correct,the microfilms were made from reconstructed lists of victories already approuved or in the process of being approved.
The originals of these lists were destroyed in a bombing of Berlin in november 1943...So l'OKL asked all units to send to R.d.L.u.Ob.d.L the lisy of victories already approuved or rejected,as well as vivtories not yet approuved before november 43.

These reconstructions involve the risk of omissions and errors compared to a first version,wich in my opinion explains the difference observed between microfilms,flight logs,Luftflotten...

At the end of 1944,the RLM called to order certain units wich had not yet transmitted these reconstituled lists.

Concerning in particular Ohlrogge (and the others) before november 1943,the 12 missing are perhaps explained following these reconstructions...who knows?

Best Regards
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Thanks for the reply.

Very rarely there are claims missing from the daily mikrofilms, but I find them in the mikrofilms with Date/time only, by memory one of Günther Rall's was so.

I found that unconfirmed claims on abschüßetafel are not recorded on the mikrofilms of the daily type, date/time type or Staffel type. In fact the abschüßetafel of 1./JG27 records if confirmed or not, and it matches the mikrofilms exactly i.e Werner Schroer's first three claims are missing from the Staffel mikrofilms, and are recorded as disputed on the abschüßetafel. Also with missing claims, even with evidence elsewhere that are missing from the mikrofilms it's always the same few guys claims missing, yet their colleagues claims are all there, you would expect missing claims to be consistent among all pilots, but it just isn't so.

Kind Regards

Johannes