Mureaux in Holland?

[Pieter H]

I have a picture of a french Mureaux reconnaiscance/liaison aircraft which is supposedly crashed in the south of the Netherlands in May 1940. No date, location or identification apart from a white 2 on the tail. If the story is true it is no doubt an aircraft of one of the GAOs (501 or 552)supporting the 7eme Armee of Gn Giraud around Breda.

My questions:
- does anybody know of a crashed Mureaux in this area in May 1940?
- from which airfields in Belgium was this unit operating, assuming that these units did accompany the Army on their move north?

Pieter

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I found no Mureux lost in Holland in the book "Ils étaient là". At this stage of the war, the Potez 63.11 was the main aircraft used by the GAO and both GAO 501 and 552 lost one of them on 13 May.
Potez 63.11 n° 297 GAO 501 shot down by 9 Bf 109s at Oirschot, near Eindhoven, in the evening (3 KIA). It seems to me it was the only GAO aircraft lost over Holland.
Potez 63.11 n° 689 GAO 552 hit by Flak, crashed on return at 3km from the airfield of Saint-Nicolas, Belgium (3 KIA).

Only 5 Mureaux were lost during the campaing of May-June 1940
_ n° 42 of GAO 544 shot down by Flak on 12 May in the Ardennes, crew
unhurt
_ n° 35 of GAO 553 shot down by Bf 109s at 16h00 on 12 May, unknown location, but unit based in Nancy. It was porbably the Mureaux claimed at 17h15 east of Zabern by Fw Willi Gasthaus of 4./JG 51.
_ n° 57 and 91 of GAO 501 shot down during transfer flight over the Somme by German fighters, 1 KIA, 3 WIA. They were claimed by Ltn Ludwig Franzisket (4th kill) and Ltn Erwin-Günter Mann (3rd kill) of 1./JG 1
_ a Mureaux 115 of GAO 518 was badly hit by Bf 109 and force-landed near Nevers. Both crew wounded

May your crashed plane be a Fox or Firefly from the Belgian airforce rather than a French aircraft ?

[Pieter H]

Thanks Laurent!

Still, assuming that the location is indeed the Netherlands as claimed in the caption, it is definitely a wrecked Mureaux 117. The picture clearly shows the tail with the characteristic Armee de l'Air tricolor tail panel and the often used french styke big number 2.

My interpretation is then that this is a Muraux used for liaison with the 7eme Armee and either crashed while landing or abandoned and burned or damaged on the ground during a german air attack.

Without more details on the whereabouts of the picture it will be difficult to conclude more.

[Jaap Woortman]

The only plane that comes close to the type you have mentioned is the:
40-05-10, Herkingen ( bij boerderij Hr.Geluk)Mureaux 115.
Pilot and unit unknown.
It is the only Mureaux in the database of the Dutch Studygroup Airwar 1939-1945.
I do not know if there is a big difference in construction between 115 and the 117.
We are interested in a scan of that picture.

Jaap Woortman
Secretary Dutch Study Group Airwar 1939-1945.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

So a possible explanation of this loss, confirmed by Jaap with date and place, will be a liaison aircraft, not belonging to operationnal units that are dealt with the book "Ils étaient là".

Last year I started to list the losses of the training and auxiliary units of the Armée de l'Air, but I only reached January 1940 before finding a new job and running out of time. So I can't help here. I plan to go to the SHAA one day this month and will try to find something for the 10 May.

[Pieter H]

Dear Jaap, Laurent,

Thanks! This at least confirms a Mureaux loss in May.
The location of the island Goeree-Overflakkee is quite surprising, wouldn't have expected french flights up to there already on May 10, especially not a slow and defenseless Mureaux. In this case it was also hardly a liaison flight, beacuse there were no french forces on Goereee to liase with. But as a loss during a recon flight it should normally be listed in "Ils etaient la". Still some questions left.

If Jaap's classification of a Mureaux 115 is correct, it should most likely be an aircraft of GAO501 from Dunkerque-Mardyck, since this was the only GAO of the 7e Armee flying with Mureaux 115. GAO552 from St Omer flew Mureaux 117.
The difference between Mureaux 115 and 117 was the engine, and the main visible difference the engine cowling. However, since the plane is on its nose it is not possible to identify the exact type. I hope the 115 comes from identification of the wreck in 1940, so I have no reasons to doubt on that.

By the way, the picture is from "Mei 1940" of Schoenmaker and Postma p.74.

Pieter

[Peter T]

Hi Pieter,

just have a look at Ebay auction 6254180663. I think one of the pictures is the one you are refering to. These are rather well known and come from a photographer of SS Verfügungs Division. If this your plane, have a look at the way of this unit and this should give you an idea of the possible locations.

Regards

peter

[RossGmann]

FYI

www.luftwaffe.cz/franzisket.html
Entry 4 at Amiens on 19.5.1940. No further details

Kind Regards

Ross