ID of White 3 of 4./JG26 Bf109E possible ID near Vitry-en-Artois, near Douai, France?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Perhaps some of your viewers from the Doui area of northern France can help definitively ID a photo of a well-known aircraft recently posted for eBay auction. The lastest photo shows a very large, pyramidal pile of mine tailings, along with a small village and cchurch, which might be recognizable to someone who lives in the area. This is Bf109E White 3+- of 4./JG26. WNr. 779, with a single white victory bar above this number. Some people have assigned this to the loss of Fw Willi Roth in an E-3 on June 3, 1940, who went down about 40 km north of Paris. However, I'm of the opinion that this is 17 May 1940, Obfw Heinz Heidenpeter of 4./JG26 possibly down near Vitry-en-Artois west of Douai, France. My hunch is that the ore tailings pile (the pyramid) is the key to the identity.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1

Can anyone solve this mystery?

Thanks for any possible help.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Larry/All

Why do you and Jochen Prien ascribe the loss of Heidenpeter to the 17th while Caldwell lists him as lost on the 18th??

Cheers
Stig

[Larry Hickey]

Stig,

I don't know the answer to your question. I used Prien's volume as a reference.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Stig,

The German Quartermaster Returns list two losses to 4./JG26 on 17 May 1940 so perhaps your question is better directed to Don Caldwell who obviously had very good reason to record otherwise.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Sure Peter

If I had had Don's e-mail I would certainly have asked him the question.
Unfortunately I don't!
However I trust your own book will be covering the subject, so hopefully we will have at least your own opinion and decisions...

Cheers
Stig

[Pieter H]

Larry,

I can not claim to have definitive proof for either of the theories, but I see at least a few arguments in support of your theory that this is the a/c of Obfw Heinz Heidenpeter that came down May 17.

1. The landscape definitely looks more like the north of France than "40 km N. of Paris". It is flat, almost tree-less, quite in contrast to the region N. of Paris with plenty of hills and woods. Also the region with the mining "terrils" (the french word for these artificial mountains of cole slacks) is a broad belt going from around Béthune, and then through Lens and Douai towards Belgium around Charleroi. Not being from that area it is impossible to say which Terril and which village church those on the picture might be, but the likelihood of being around Douai is much larger than that of the area of Paris.
2. Secondly the number of victory bars. Taking the list on Tony Woods web site, I find no claims of Heinz Heidenpeter. However, this is the "corrected and cleaned-up" list, and I can easily imagine that Heidenpeter had claimed one aircraft in the first week of the campaign. Wilhelm Roth however had already 4 claims by the time he was shot down: on 18, 19 and 29 May, and June 1. It would be highly unlikely that he had not taken time to have them painted on his a/c. So his Messerschmidt should have shown at least 3-4 victory bars by June 3.

So I would say you do have a point.
Kind regards,

Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Thanks Pieter, your points are all part of the reason why I disagree with a location "40 km N. of Paris," which would be Roth. I know that Roth, after returning from temporary captivity, has been identified with flying "White 3," but this was many months after the events of the FC. Captions accompanying the many photos of this aircraft on eBay over the past couple of years seem to point to "near Douai." The pile of coal mining tailings (small mountains you called a coal-slack) is very large and would have been very, very prominant from many kilometers away at the time, alhtough it may not even be in evidence today. The rock and dirt could have been used as fill on a road or railroad bed, or just used as building gravel and it may not look today anything like it did back then. Probably only someone local from the Douai area is going to be able to solve this one. Hopefully, they can even find the small village in the background, which would give us the exact location. I hope that we have some French Board visitors who can help with this. This one can be correctly identified. We just need some luck here. Maybe someone at the local historical museum in Douai might be able to help if we can figure out how to bring them into the problem.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Stig,

Don Caldwell is listed as a member of this forum.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Hello,

... The pile of coal mining tailings (small mountains you called a coal-slack) is very large and would have been very, very prominant from many kilometers away at the time, alhtough it may not even be in evidence today. The rock and dirt could have been used as fill on a road or railroad bed, or just used as building gravel and it may not look today anything like it did back then. Probably only someone local from the Douai area is going to be able to solve this one. Hopefully, they can even find the small village in the background, which would give us the exact location. ...
Regards,

Hi Larry,

Not exactly for the first part: it's still there! at the entrance of Douai, nearby the highway.
And yes, it's not Roth's plane.

Cheers, Franck.