96. OIAE VVS BF

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

I wonder if someone, has exacte data concerning amount of all plane in 96. OIAE VVS CzF on 22.06.1941 (combats, non-combats).

Many times I have met with following data: 14 I-15 bis, 3 I-153 (about 20 biplane fighters), but there were no information about such planes like UTI-4 or U-2 or other non-combats palnes on its strengh, which should be too? Other units had such planes.

Information given in nice book written by Denes Bernard, Dmitrij Karelnko and J. L. Roba, From Bararossa to Odessa vol. I, is very inaccurate (40 I-153 in Nokolayev, p. 12)!

Regards,
mirekw

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Information given in nice book written by Denes Bernard, Dmitrij Karelnko and J. L. Roba, From Bararossa to Odessa vol. I, is very inaccurate (40 I-153 in Nokolayev, p. 12)!

Why do you think that Barbarossa/Odessa is "very inaccurate" and your source is better?

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

If I do not think so, I do not write it, it is obvious!

There are some differences of course like 6 I-153 and 8 I-15bis (other source) - less the 20, but this is not the point, the point is non-combats planes in such unit, which shoul be too. Most in Soviet's, Russian's times books are mentioned only first line planes - combats.

In this book is only mentioned 40 I-153, very "accurace" indeed source? Which is wrong.
There were of course other non-combats planes with such squadrons, but my source do not show them, giving only combat this about 14 fighters.


Regards,
mw

[oquaig]

Hi Mirek,

As I am sure you know by now up to 1938 all VVS and VMF fighter squadrons were organized with 34 aircraft in 3 groups and 12 replacement aircraft. Although the VVS and VMF changed over to a new organization after 1938 (squadrons of five flights of 3 aircraft each or 15 fighters per squadron) the VMF was slowest to change. While the VVS changed over from aviation brigades to aviation divisions the VMF did not. The VMF did convert to regimental organization but it retained a large number of independent squadrons. There were 14 such squadrons in the Black Sea Fleet. All of these squadrons were converted to a new TO&E of 5 flights of 3 aircraft and one squadron leader, a total of 16 aircraft, for recon (ORAE/MRAE), 4 flights of 3 aircraft and one squadron leader, a total of 13 aircraft, for torpedo/bomber (OBAE/MTAE) and TO&E of 5 flights of 3 aircraft and one squadron leader, a total of 16 aircraft, for fighters (OIAE). Of the three OIAE with VMF BSF (87, 93, 94, 96 and 98 OIAE) only the 94 OIAE (as of 1 June 1941) had been converted to the new TO&E. (I thought at first the rest of the regiment might be based at another airfield but I never found an alternate base, unless the extra aircraft with 93rd OIAE might belong also to the 94th) The 87th had 45 aircraft, 93rd had 70 (!), 96th had 40 and the 98th was known to still have the old TO&E but its exact strength is not known to me. But then again only the TsAMO knows for sure.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
Thanks for the tips, in several Soviet or in Russia times memories, this 96. OIAE had such amount of planes (I-15 bis and I-153), it means a new structure, not old one.
The exacte data about planes in this squadron as so far is not full know.

Regards,
mirekw

PS
Beside to comabt plane there were next training (UTI-4?) and other planes (U-2), it shoulbe be next 4-6 such planes?

[oquaig]

Hi Mirek,

From what I have on VMF BSF I do not find any UTI-4 or U-2 in the list of aircraft, which is odd. The 3rd URAP only lists SB-2 (11), I-15bis (10) and I-153 (6). Denes Bernard quotes a strength for VMF BSF as 624 aircraft. He does not show all the units I have on my list but for for those we both have the numbers and types of aircraft match. Kalashnikov gives the strength as 636. I have identified 725 aircraft including units I found in Lennart Anderson's work on the VMF. The UTI-4 and U-2' might have been attached to the regiments themselves as they often were in the Army aviation units. But if you find out more I would like to know.

Regards
Oquaig

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

No, such planes were also on squadron's strenght. For example, there is full data about Pinskaya Voyennaya Flotilla and their reccon's squadron, which had 22 planes of which were 16 comabts reccon-light bomber Neman R-10, 2 UTI-4, 2 UT-1 and one each U-2 i R-5 (46. OAE PVF).
There should be also such non-comabts planes in other independent units, as were in regiment's level too.

Regards,
mirekw

PS

Denes Bernard quotes a strength for VMF BSF as 624 aircraft.

Yes, but this is only combat's one, excluding non-combats, it is very often written in many publications.

[oquaig]

Thanks Mirek,

I have 46th OAE listed as an ORAE, but no figures on number or types of aircraft flown, Thank you for that. Can I ask what your source was for that information ?

Best regards
Oquaig

[Nokose]

I don't know if this helps any but I found a chart for the 20Sep41 listing the 96 OIAE at Burnak AF with I-16 (numbers 7/6) and I-153 (3/2).

[oquaig]

Originally Posted by Nokose

I don't know if this helps any but I found a chart for the 20Sep41 listing the 96 OIAE at Burnak AF with I-16 (numbers 7/6) and I-153 (3/2).

Hello

It helps me in the long run. Can you name that source or where you found it ? Thanks for the feed back.

Oquaig