JG 5 Theo Weißenbergers 100th victory

[Horst Kube]

I have the Abschussmeldung No. 100 of Theo Weißenberger, a IL-2 shot down north of Fisher Island, Planquadrat 37 Ost, 1022 E in a height of 200 meters, dated from 05 July 1943. On this day he claimed a total of 6 victories with his Bf 109 G-2.

Irritating for me is, and this is documented in the Abschussmeldung, that he used for his shoots 3 (three) MG 151/20. I thought the Bf 109 G-2's were equipped with 2 MG 151 canons only.

Or did he use also the MG's which were in the underwing gondolas?

Thanks for updating me.

[wotan]

Irritating for me is, and this is documented in the Abschussmeldung, that he used for his shoots 3 (three) MG 151/20. I thought the Bf 109 G-2's were equipped with 2 MG 151 canons only.

Maybe I miss understand the question but the Bf 109G-2 was armed with 1 x MG 151/2cm firing through the prop hub and 2 x MG 17s. Bf 109 G-2s could be fitted with 2 x MG 151/2cm underwing gondolas.

'3 x MG 151/2cm' would makes sense if Weißenberger's Bf 109 G-2 was carrying gondolas.

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by wotan

Maybe I miss understand the question but the Bf 109G-2 was armed with 1 x MG 151/2cm firing through the prop hub and 2 x MG 17s. Bf 109 G-2s could be fitted with 2 x MG 151/2cm underwing gondolas.

'3 x MG 151/2cm' would makes sense if Weißenberger's Bf 109 G-2 was carrying gondolas.

Wotan, from my infos the Bf 109 G-2 were "normally" equipped with 2 MG 151/20 (not 1), firing through the prop hub and 2 MG 17 in the wings.

From the details I have here, Theo flew at that time, June/July 1943 the G-2, "Yellow 4" with the 7./JG 5 in Petsamo. The image shows no underwing gondolas. This is the fact, which irritates me.

Best, Horst

[wotan]

From F to K all Bf 109s had 1 Cannon firing though the prop hub - either MG 151/1.5 or 2cm or Mk 108/3cm. There's no way 2 or more cannon could fire through the hub.

I am not familiar with the exact load-out of Weißenberger's Bf 109 G-2 but three MG 151/2cms would indicate 'gondolas'.

See here.

Regards,

Bruce

[Horst Kube]

[quote=wotan;63143]From F to K all Bf 109s had 1 Cannon firing though the prop hub - either MG 151/1.5 or 2cm or Mk 108/3cm. There's no way 2 or more cannon could fire through the hub.

I am not familiar with the exact load-out of Weißenberger's Bf 109 G-2 but three MG 151/2cms would indicate 'gondolas'.

See here.

Sorry Bruce, you are right. Naturally I meant the 2 cannons in the nose, front section, not the one through the hub.

Nevertheless stands the question, why Weißenbergers Abschussmeldung says he used 3 MG 151, when he defitnetly had no underwing gondolas at this Bf 109 plane "Yellow 4" in June/July 1943.

Tks. again for your correction.
Horst

[wotan]

The on board weapons load-out for a Bf 109 G-2 was a single MG 151/20 mm cannon firing through the prop hub. In addition there were 2 x MG 17 7.92 mm machine guns in cowling.

2 x MG 151/20 mm under wing gondolas could be mounted as well.

See the link I posted above. This image shows the on board weapons configuration for a Bf 109 G-6 - as such the 2 cowling mounted machine guns are now MG 131 13 mm .



So if Weißenberger's 100th Abschuß was 'with 3 x MG 151s' then at first glance this would imply his Bf 109 G-2 was fitted with the MG 151/20 mm under wing gondolas. If his Bf 109 G-2 was not fitted with gondolas then there must be an error. It could mean he achieved this kill with his 3 'on board weapons' - i.e. 1 x Mg 151/20 mm cannon firing through the hub and his 2 x Mg 17 7.92 mm machine guns mounted in the cowl.

Good Luck,

Bruce

[Kjetil Aakra]

Hi Horst.

According to my research Weissenberger and his mates in 6./JG 5 had a few Bf 109F-4s and the G-2/R-6 from January 1943 until July 1943 when the first G-6s appeared (and still continued to use the G-2 for some considerable time). If the individual number you quoted, "Yellow 4", is correct for the date mentioned (5. July 1943) I feel certain that it was his old G-2/R-6 inherited from 6. Staffel, especially as he took command of 7. Staffel only a few weeks earlier, on 15. June, if my sources are correct.

Are you absolutely sure that Weissenberger did not have underwing gondolas on his G-2 at the time indicated (June-July 1943)?? If you have a photo showing otherwise it would be very interesting to see it. Maybe this photo was taken after he claimed the victories you mentioned?

An alternative interpretation is that your photo actually show "White 4" (which would be appropriate for a 7. Staffel aircraft) as white and yellow can sometimes be hard to distinguish on black-and-white photos, especially within JG 5 which seem to have used a dirty white colour at times.

In any case, if the Abschussmeldung shows 3xMG 151 to have been used you can be sure that it featured underwing gondolas.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Kjetil Aakra

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by Kjetil Aakra

Hi Horst.

According to my research Weissenberger and his mates in 6./JG 5 had a few Bf 109F-4s and the G-2/R-6 from January 1943 until July 1943 when the first G-6s appeared (and still continued to use the G-2 for some considerable time). If the individual number you quoted, "Yellow 4", is correct for the date mentioned (5. July 1943) I feel certain that it was his old G-2/R-6 inherited from 6. Staffel, especially as he took command of 7. Staffel only a few weeks earlier, on 15. June, if my sources are correct.

Are you absolutely sure that Weissenberger did not have underwing gondolas on his G-2 at the time indicated (June-July 1943)?? If you have a photo showing otherwise it would be very interesting to see it. Maybe this photo was taken after he claimed the victories you mentioned?

An alternative interpretation is that your photo actually show "White 4" (which would be appropriate for a 7. Staffel aircraft) as white and yellow can sometimes be hard to distinguish on black-and-white photos, especially within JG 5 which seem to have used a dirty white colour at times.

In any case, if the Abschussmeldung shows 3xMG 151 to have been used you can be sure that it featured underwing gondolas.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Kjetil Aakra

Dear Kjetil,

all you mentioned makes now a sense for me. As mentioned before, my sideview of Weißenbergers 109 G-2 "Yellow 4" doesn't show the gondolas.

Yellow was an intermidiate colour of the 7. Staffel- before the call signs were white, correct what you say, but in the mid of 1943 the coulours went into yellow of the (later) 9. Staffel.

Thank you for clearing up this matter.
All the best, Horst

[Kjetil Aakra]

Hi Horst.

Glad if I could help!

This side view you're talking about sure sounds interesting as I don't know of a full view of Weissenberger's G-2 from summer 1943 ever having been published. All I've seen is a pencil sketch in Girbig's JG 5 chronicle and that is full of errors, I suspect.

Is this the same Bf 109G-2 as that famous colour photo of Weissenberger's rudder showing 112 victories?

Best regards,

Kjetil Aakra