JG400

[Michael Land]

I am researching about an attack by B17’s on Zwickau on the 7th October 1944 where one of them returning due to flak damage came under sustained attacks by Me 163’s. Some research has led me to believe that one of the pilots may have been Sergeant Kurt Schiebeler who is said to have won two victories in the Komet, both B 17 "Flying Fortress" heavies, and both in October of 1944 . The B17 in question though had previously been badly hit by flak knocking one engine out and blowing away the bomb doors only to have a second engine knocked out of action by Me 163’s.

In a “nutshell” the information I would most like to have is what probable markings/camouflage and the German side of information on this attack. Were there any claims made by the pilots this day? Did they mark this B17 down as a "probable"? Also would you know if pilots were assigned to individual aircraft or did they just fly what aircraft happened to be ready?

In one book I have reports from U.S. Mustang pilots report 4 floating dark objects at high altitude in that vicinity. While another book goes on to say that the attack on the bomber went on for some time before Mustang pilots came along and chased them off………. Hardly likely in view of the small amount of flying time they had!

[John Beaman]

JG 400 lists only one claim for this day and not even a destruction:

10/7/1944, Uffz.Schielbeler, 1./JG 400, B-17, HSS, LF 7: 6000m , [Naunhof südlich Brandis], 12.34--confirmed yes, C.2027/IIAnerk: Nr. -

[Michael Land]

Many thanks John for your time and trouble in replying. This ties in nicely with what I have managed to piece together in my initial enquiry. Looks as if Sgt. (Unterofficer?) Kurt Schiebeler was pretty handy with his Me 163!
I wonder John if you could just explain "HSS, LF 7: 6000m , [Naunhof südlich Brandis], 12.34--confirmed yes, C.2027/IIAnerk: Nr.
I'm not sure of the abbreviations:- HSS??........ would LF7 be the map reference square and altitude and also over town of Naunhof south of Brandis? Time 12:34? Confirmed by a company of soldiers?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

HSS means that the bomber was forced to leave his formation. The Luftwaffe validated such a deed as a full victory, given teh difficulty of attacking a bomber box.
On the other hand shooting down a damaged straggler was not considered as a full victory, and shoud be claimes as a "B-17 e.V.", e.V. being the initials of "final destruction" in German.
By the way, I dind't remember right now the full name of HSS, Heraus something...

LF7 is the map reference, and [Naunhof südlich Brandis] its transcription.

6000m : altitude of the successful attack

12.34: time of the attack

confirmed yes, C.2027/IIAnerk: Nr. : this means confirmed by the Luftwaffe victory confirmation system, a long process that may take years in some cases. This system broke in the second half of 1944. "C.2027/II" is the code number of the file listing the official confirmation, "Anerk: Nr." is supposed to list the "line" number in this file, but is empty here.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

On the other hand shooting down a damaged straggler was not considered as a full victory, and shoud be claimes as a "B-17 e.V.", e.V. being the initials of "final destruction" in German.
By the way, I dind't remember right now the full name of HSS, Heraus something...

confirmed yes, C.2027/IIAnerk: Nr. : this means confirmed by the Luftwaffe victory confirmation system

e.V. = endgültige Vernichtung (literally something like "ultimate annihilation")
HSS = Herausschuss = shooting out [from the group]

Better German speakers will correct me but I don't think "anerkannt" strictly means "confirmed" (that would be "bestätigt") but rather "acknowledged" or "recognised." This is a small point, I admit but maybe it matters to historians. The Claims Commission was saying that the claim met their criteria and could be added to the pilot's score (and points toward a medal). Using the word "confirmed" makes it sound like there definitely was a kill whereas we - with access to both sides' sources - know there quite often wasn't one.

[Kutscha]

I understood a victory was only awarded if the a/c was shot down.

The Germans used a points system for the awarding of decorations and promotions.

In effect only on the Western Front:
Aircraft Type AbschussDestroyed - Herrausschuss Separation - Entgültige Vernichtung Final Destruction
Single-engined 1 - 0 - 0
Twin-engined bomber 2 - 1 - 1/2
Four-engined bomber 3 - 2 - 1

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgscor.htm