Mc205s shot down by Bf109s

[Brian]

Hi guys

On 29 April 1944 two ANR pilots were killed when JG77 mistook their C205s for Spitfires.

Do we have any details? Names? Location?

Cheers
Brian

[Brian Bines]

Brian from some notes I had S.Ten Luigi Bandini a 5 vic. ace falling to JG77 over San Paolo, and Mllo. Pietro Salvatico falling to JG77 over Macerata Feltria. The JG77 history by Dr. Prien indicates II/JG77 as being involved. Hopefully one of our Italian friends can confirm the spellings and give more details,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Brian]

Excellent, Brian

You are also on my Christmas card list!

Cheers
Brian

[RolandF]

Might have been Veltros wearing the striped brown/green "herringbone" camouflage.
Incidents like that have been the reason why the German RLM 74/75/76 camo system was introduced for the ANR, too.

Regards

Roland

[Laurent Rizzotti]

This link has other crash places for these two Italian losses, but confirms the pilots and the German unit:
http://www.aereiperduti.net/anni/1944.php

You can find some more details there (in Italian...):
http://www.alireggiane.com/t258-coma...riano-visconti

Best regards

Laurent

[veltro]

Originally Posted by RolandF

Might have been Veltros wearing the striped brown/green "herringbone" camouflage.
Incidents like that have been the reason why the German RLM 74/75/76 camo system was introduced for the ANR, too.

I would be much more cautious with such conclusions...

As a matter of fact the RLM camouflage was officially applied to the C.205s of 1° Gruppo since March 1944.

Also, the "herringbone" camo was a factory made finish applied only to the C.205s of "Serie VI" of which only a handful was produced from May 1944...

Thus, I would be much more prone to believe that it simply was a wrong ID and communication problem, with the German fighters finding other aircraft in a place and time where they expected only enemy fighters.

Misunderstandings with radio communications and between Italians and Germans were not uncommon, although this was the most glaring example.

[RolandF]

Grazie, Ferdinando,

per la tua gentilezza di rispondere - and for your point of view.
Yes, problems with language and different radio equipment certainly may be the reason for misidentifying an object.
On the other hand, II./JG 77 had their own experiences with the Veltro, flying it in the final months of '43, but featuring the old RA "smoke-ring" camo.
So JG 77 ought to have experiences with a correct identification of their targets. This does not exclude young, inexperienced Luftwaffe pilots performing such mistakes. Do we know the M.M.s of the MC.205s to get an impression which camo might have been applied?

What I wanted to say is, that any green/brown camo of this time might have been regarded as hostile by the LW pilots.

Regards

Roland

[veltro]

You're welcome, Roland.

We don't know know the serials or the codes of the C.205s shot down on 29 April, but the fact that the first C.205s with "herringbone" camo started to arrive well into May should be enough to dismiss the possibility of such camouflage being the cause of the accident...

The theorical possibility of such camo being "risky" isn't enough to change facts or timings, IMHO.

What is sure is that by that date, all the C.205s of the unit should have been painted in RLM 74/75/76 and that the camo wasn't a reasonable cause of the wrong ID.

Then, everything is always possible, but - if we follow facts and known data - a mere "wrong place and time" is the most accountable reason.

[Brian]

Thanks guys for the input

I don't expect we know the identities of the errant pilots, do we?

Cheers
Brian

[Brian Bines]

Dr. Priens book under II/JG77 just says in the area of Bologna 26 Mc205s were attacked by Bf 109s of JG77 with two Macchis shot down and the pilots killed. He then shows a Fw. Muller of 4/JG77 claiming a Spitfire (no 18) at 1450hrs, it does not show if the two Macchis fell to other pilots or whether Muller got one of them. As regards the crash locations I gave in my previous post these came from an Italian site, perhaps Veltro could confirm whether I noted them correctly as Laurents post does not appear to give the same info.,

Regards

Brian Bines