Sgt G. L. Payne, age 53 22nd May 1940

[Observer1940]

On a visit to the Isle of Man, I came across a grave at Jurby Church (St Patrick) for Sgt G. L. Payne (Sgt George Lloyd Payne) 346032, aged 53, on 22/05/1940 according to his headstone he was married to Phyllis.

CWGC say his parents were from Speke, Liverpool and Flight Global just has his death on Active Service.

The nearest RAF Station was RAF Jurby No.5 Air Observer Navigation School (alias No.5 Bombing & Gunnery School). I have have part of May 40 photographed, but not that date.

Any information on this loss please?

Thanks Mark

[Leendert]

Mark,

This link here comes pretty close to (the) Sgt G.L. Payne in your question:


http://www.cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/vie...php?f=3&t=7017

Regards,

Leendert

[dp_burke]

The key thing to note about his casualty listing

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...?search=346032

is that he 'Died on Active Service', he was not 'Killed on Active Service'. The distinction between the two would be that the DOAS is generally associated with someone dying from
Natural Cause
a car/bike/trusk/ accident
Someone who died when their home was bombed in a bombing raid.

It should not be associated with someone killed in a plane crash, for example someone in a training aircraft or someone getting a lift in a service aircraft.

You can get the reference numbers to get his death cert here:
manxbmd.com/

[Orwell1984]

http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy...1682&view=next

Another thread on someone searching for information on this gentleman.

[Observer1940]

Thanks, I had seen the links.

Just returned from the IOM and I visited Jurby.

According to the Isle of Man Archives the Church Burial Register transcription just gives initials, surname, Sgt and RAF. The Manx newspapers which are all electronically searchable record nothing, despite surname and numerous search terms, casualty, Inquest, crash and place names.

The monument inscription states his wife was Phyllis and the only other information discovered was that he was from Speke, Liverpool.

The ORB of the Unit (based at Jurby), held at TNA, Kew might record his death, but some deaths, including flying accidents were only recorded in the Station HQ ORB and it seems not every Station HQ ORB is listed at TNA.

Incidentally Sgt R. S. Hartnell (56871), 24th August 1940 appears to be recorded in the same grave.

F/Lt Hall (Canberra WT.328 - 7.5.1956)
The visit to Jurby Churchyard meant that I came across a Mr Hall visiting his mother's grave who was in the SOE and a very interesting account about his missing father F/Lt. V. D. Hall and missing Pilot S/Ldr M. R. Alston in Canberra WT328 on 7th May 1956 from the A&EEE at Boscombe Down, who had managed to get a hefty photocopy file including RAF Court, A.I.B. correspondence, photographs, map, weather report, wireless, distress trace, and correspondence from England.

I heard the UFO collision account that his mother had told him.

However, I got to see the actual Report photocopies which indicated that the Canberra had struck the sea at a steep angle. The port engine was found to have been under power at the time of impact. A Distress trace signal was also received apparently.

However the RAF Court suggested the aircraft was turning and that the Pilot "probably" touched the sea with the port wing tip first due to them being tasked on a low level flight and recorded an error of judgement.

The AIB had a "Misc. Report" number attached in the same file indicating that four other Canberras in the mid 1950s were in a steep dive before crashing due to a runaway tail actuator fault.

When the Navy recovered the tail, the RAF claimed the recovered tail actuator indicated the Canberra was trimmed 0.02 degrees nose up.

Mark

[dp_burke]

And did you obtain his CIVIL death certificate as suggested in my post above? This will give you a cause of death.

[Col Bruggy]

Mark,

568749 Sgt (Fitter II/Air Gnr.) Richard Sidney HARTNELL RAF, was killed (along with 7 others), when No.11 OTU Wellington IA N2945, crashed in the sea off Bradda Head, Isle of Man, on 24-8-1940.

Full details can be found in BCL7/27.

Col.

[Chris Goss]

According to the AHB, Payne died of natural causes

[Observer1940]

Thanks for the replies Chris and Dennis

Thanks Colin
Regarding Wellington N2945 there is an account in "Rough Landing or Fatal Flight" by Steve Poole of the Isle of Man.

Steve got permission to access Manx Civilian records.

OTU BC Losses (pub. 2002) has T/o Bassingbourne at about 1100 hrs, but they must have landed at Jurby? Because Steve stated they took off from RAF Jurby on the night of 24th August 1940.

Steve also mentioned that Sgt Richard Sydney Hartnell and Sgt Frank Arthur Edwin Gates were stationed at RAF Jurby and had taken off from RAF Jurby on a night navigation flight, part of which took them off Bradda Head, Port Erin and for reasons unknown the Wellington crashed into the sea with the loss of both crew members.

Robert Bridson of Ballabeg, Arbory was walking on the beach at Fleshwick Bay, Isle of Man at 11.30am on 15th September 1940 and pulled the body of one crew out the water and alerted the Police who later identified him as Sgt Hartnell, his wristwatch was found to have stopped at 9.45 pm [2145 hrs].

Sgt Gates body was found near the shoreline at Creggans Mooar, Dalby on 27th October 1940 at 12.20 pm, by Richard Faragher who worked at Lhagg Farm. There is also a reference to the Wellington being built by Vickers Weybridge Factory during August-December 1939.

Mark