4.(H)/23 subordination during Apr.-Jun.43

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

A strange picture with the subordination of 4.(H)/23 close recce Staffel during the spring-summer 1943.

On 20.May.43 the unit was in NAGr3 (Luftflotte 6) but as against two other Staffeln (3.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/31) it was subordinated to Luftflotte 4.

On 5.Jul.43 it was subordinated to NAGr6 (Luftflotte 4).

Where the 4.(H)/23 was between April and June really (subordination, bases)?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Andrey,

Here is what I have for 4.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 23 during the time period requested:

4.5.43: ordered to transfer from Smolensk-North to Kharkov-Alekseyevka for operations under Luftflotte 4.
2.6.43: Hs 126 shot down by a fighter in Pl.Qu. 61351 (Belgorod area north of Kharkov), 100%, 2 KIA.
6.43: departed Russia for Germany to convert to the Bf 109G and renamed 2./NAGr. 5 in August 1943.

Larry

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hi Larry,

Thank you! Useful as always.

So its presence in the OOB VIII.FK on 5.Jul.43 (Der Zweite Weltkrieg... Bd.8) is erroneous?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Andrey,

Here is a little more:

2./NAGr. 5
(Unit Code U2+)

Formation. (August 1943)
Ordered formed in August 1943 at Herzogenaurach/Bavaria (ex-4.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 23) and equipped with Messerschmitt Bf 109G single-seat fighters outfitted for reconnaissance missions. The Staffel’s Feldpost number was first assigned on 13 October 1943, which would give it an effective date of formation of approximately 1 October 1943.

Did the personnel of 4.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 23 actually depart for Germany in June 1943, or did the Staffel postpone their departure because of Zitadelle on 5 July? I do not know. The surviving documents do not say. I think you would need to examine the Flugbuecher of several men who were with the Staffel at that time. But I will say this: the absence of any losses for the Staffel after 2.6.43 does suggest that it probably left in June and returned to the Reich.

If you find out more, please let us know.

Larry

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you again, Larry!

Yes, the absence of losses from 2.Jun.43 seems an argument really.

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

If you find out more, please let us know.

OK

Best regards,
Andrey

[Pawel Burchard]

http://yogysoft.de/pawel/_kursk/

There is no trace of 4./23

p.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Pawel Burchard

There is no trace of 4./23

Hello Pawel,

The attached image is from "Der Zweite Weltkrieg..." Bd.8, with sources.
So it is error probably from Ulf Balke's collection?

To take the opportunity: thank you for your excellent website.

And a small remark: in KTB StG2 on 26.May.43 the number of Ju87 sorties is missed (306 sorties)

Best regards,
Andrey

[Pawel Burchard]

Probably was true for 30.6.43 but no trace of 4./23 in various documents for July/August 1943 I was able to research.

And thanks for correction

p.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, all

On June 20th 1943 the unit was still subordinated to Lfl. 4 and Nahaufkl.Gr.3, but it is noted that the unit has been ordered to transfer to Jesau for conversion to new aircraft (Umrüstung).

Identical status on June 30th 1943.

Identical status on July 10th 1943.

On July 20th the note states that conversion to Bf 109 at Jesau is planned, and that the units existing aircraft are to be given to 5./32.

On July 31st the unit has transferred for conversion training and is now subordinated to Luftflotte Mitte (but still under the operational command of Nahaufkl.Gr.3). The conversion is not as planned being done at Jesau, but at Bayreuth-Bindlach. For the strength return on July 31st the unit have no aircraft and is listed as 'Nicht im Einsatz' - Non operational.

On August 10 the unit is listed as being at Bayreuth-Bindlach with 2./21, with no aircraft assigned, crews only, and directly subordinated to Luftflotte Mitte. Still under category 'Nicht im Einsatz' - Non operational.

On August 20th the personnel is also gone and the unit seems to be 'on paper' only - and is listed as 'Nicht im Einsatz' - Non operational.

This situation remain until the old 4./23 is history in the report of September 30th 1943, now a part of NAGr 5, as 2./5, still doing conversion training at Bayreuth-Bindlach under the control of Luftwaffenkdo Mitte, with no aircraft except for a single liaison/light transport machine.

2./5 remain more or less a paper tiger until late in December 1943 - until then they have only between 1 and 4 aircraft of their own.

Hope this is a little help.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Andreas!
Comprehensive info.

Best regards,
Andrey