Trying to ID FL Do17Z of Stab I./KG3, 5K+BB at Allonville, France during the WC

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Anybody got a prospective ID on this one?

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...OIBUAA:US:3160

It is captioned to have FL at Allonvile or Alonville, Somme, France during the WC, but the EoE Working Group hasn't had any luck in identifying it with anything on our loss lists.

Who knows the answer to this?

Regards,

[Pieter H]

Larry, if the name Allonville is correct, that village is in the center of the triangle Chartres-Châteaudun-Orléans, south of Paris. Which suggests this happened during the later stage of Fall Rot, so June 1940.

Pieter

[ouidjat]

Pieter,

Chartres-Orléans-Châteaudun is not exactly in Somme departement area. You're wrong my friend.

Allonville 80260 is exactly in Somme departement.

This is not what Larry is looking for, indeed, but for sure the time/date laps should be completely different ... Just because of place misidentification.

Regards, Franck.

There is, effectively, an Allonville in the Chartres ... area, but it's not a village, just a Hamlet in Neuvy-en-Dunois - a true village - territory. I don't know how you missed the Somme one since it's Google first answer. To get the Neuvy one is quite a little bit more complicated!!! (need to go through "itinerary" function).

PS: As side effect ... Do you think Google, did you ever notice, Google is giving the same list when browsing from Netherlands (Google.ne) or from France (Google.fr)? This is not the first time I get this situation... I wrote from Netherlands as example. And the contrary is possible; it seems easier to look for a German village when browsing from Germany ... Should be interesting - with time to lose - to compare screen captures from different "point of view"!!!

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

The location from the seller photo caption seems to be ""Allonville," Somme Dept, Picardie Region, of N France. This puts it very close to Amiens (5 km to the south). This makes it most likely that the FL took place during the Western Campaign, probably during May, 1940, although the Battle of Britain is not completely out the question, although appears unlikely.

This now seems likely that this is:

"25 May 1940: Stab I./KG3 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by Sgt Corrin and S/Lt Gouachon of GC I/8 and crashed at Allonville, north-east of Amiens, 7.15 p.m. Possibly also attacked by Cpl Sika. BF Fw Karl Litzenberg killed, Oberlt [ ] Siebel and rest of crew believed baled out and believed captured unhurt – later released. Aircraft 100% write-off."

However, it seems likely that our info on the entire crew bailing out is probably wrong, and that at least the pilot rode the plane down to a good FL.

Does anyone have the first name of Oblt Siebel, or any other information that would help clear up this incident? There are several Siebels in the Luft Off Career Summ DB, but none that obviously fit this officer.

Regards,

Larry

[Matti Salonen]

I have Olt Siebel, Hans-Georg

Matti

[Rémi Baudru]

Hello,

The french pilots (Corrin and Gouachon) wrote that they saw two members of the crew escaping with parachute, then the Dornier "pique et percute".

That means that they saw the Dornier going down abruptly and hit the ground (not crash landing).

Regards.

RB

[Larry Hickey]

Matti,

Thanx for ID of the pilot's first name.

Rémi, the description of the pilots presents a problem. We have several photos of a FL and fully intact Do17Z of Stab I./KG3, 5K+BB. one with a caption indicating Allonville, Somme, France. We have a report of a Stab I./KG3 a/c that crashed during the correct time frame at the same location, Allonville. Based upon the report of the two French pilots, at least two of the crew were seen to bail out before the plane pitched down and crashed. However, since there are no other reports of Stab I./KG3 losses that fit this scenario, I think that the pilot reports don't tell the whole story and that the plane somehow managed to execute a good FL at the last minute. Peter Cornwell will have to evaluate this info and determine whether these photos show the same incident as the loss report.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Peter C. has now accepted that the photos of 5K+BB are of the 25 May 1940 incident.

[Pieter H]

Post #4 Hi Franck,
Given the above discussion I can only say that I was obviously wrong. And of course I know that the one I suggested is not in the Somme departement, but you know as well as me how inaccurate location indications can be. However, it were the French that mislead me! I never use Google Earth within Europe because I think it is not very good, way too crude. I always use ViaMichelin, much more detailed. That gave me - from where I was on the Michelin map - only the Allonville I suggested, not the other one. (Now if I search again from the home page it does give both of them, of course).
So you see: check-check-double check is always needed! (Also with French programs :-)).

Regards, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Our updated EoE LW loss entry for this incident now reads:
"25 May 1940 Western Campaign: Stab I./KG3 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by Cne Calmon, S/Lt Gouachon, and Sgt Sika of GC I/8 and belly-landed at Allonville, north-east of Amiens, 7.15 p.m. BF Fw Karl Litzenberg killed, Oberlt [Hans-Georg] Siebel and rest of crew believed captured unhurt – later released. Aircraft 5K+BB 100% write-off."

Thanx for all your help on this one.