Consolidated flying boats

[Johannes]

Dear all

I am working on a letter from Martin Villing in which he states that Horst Carganico and himself each shoot down a Russian flown flying boat each on 10th July 1941. Villing states it was a U.S Consolidated flying boat type, also that his "kill" caught-fire between the two engines, I assume this was a four-engine aircraft, or the fuselage would be what was on fire. This would be in the North with JG77. The closest type I could come-up with is a Consolidated PB2Y Coronado, but this is a Navy patrol boat, not a flying boat, also no knowledge of them being supplied to Russia.....pre-war it seems. Villing and Carganico must have recorded the correct type on their Abschussmeldung otherwise they would appear on the A.S.M mikrofilms.

Has anybody any idee what type they are likely to have claimed?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[BrianC]

Hi Johannes

You are aware that the Russians in the Far North operated GST Catalinas.

Cheers
Brian

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Johannes,

If the planes were 4-motors they were GST (license-built PBY-1). Can't find any loss of GST on 10.Jul.41, at least on operative report of VVS SF (Air forces of Northern Fleet) level. Maybe other participants can help, Arctic is out of my focus now.

Kind regards,
Andrey

[Snautzer]

Catalina Fuel tanks are between engines.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Many thanks for your super prompt replies.

I certainly didn't know that the Russian's operated Catalina's, and as the Catalina's wings were mounted above the fuselage a fire between the two makes perfect sense. Actually it's very probable now that Catalina's were involved. Only other information I have is that there were three together, Carganico attacked from below them, and Villing attacked from above. Actually I had skipped a page and got the date wrong(sorry) true date was according to Villing 25th July 194, the rotte were on a mission over Murmansk, and the contact happened during their return flight, as stated Carganico attacked them from below and claimed one, the other two climbed to avoid him, and flew right before Villing, " all I had to do was shoot" he stated, also attacked the third aircraft, but didn't determine if it actually fell, however army troops reported that this too fell.

As Carganico had a problem with Villing, I guess we can assume no over-claiming as each must have witnessed the others claim. Villing implies that Carganico was bad-tempered, and Villing used the rules against him, which didn't help.

Hope the new date can produce some actual losses.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Johannes,

Can't find GST losses on 25.Jul.41 too.
The closest loss was at 05:10+ msk 24.Jul.41 during the attacks against 4 German destroyers (well-known German raid). 2 GST, 3 SB, 9 MBR-2 and 1 Pe-2 had attacked the destroyers from 05:10 in 6940N/3545E. 1 GST was damaged by Bf110 (sic!), forced landed near Zakhrebetnoye and burned out, crew was saved. 2 MBR-2 (1-motor flying boats) FTR, one of crews was saved later at sea (don't know, with their's plane or not).

Maybe date in the letter is wrong.

Kind regards,
Andrey

[GMichalski]

Hi,
i found this web..maybe it helps little...

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...ly-inaccurate/

By the German surrender on May 9th, 1945, the Soviet Union had received 107 PBN-1s. Amazingly, none of the Soviet Nomads had been lost in combat, although nine had been lost due technical problems.

Maybe some producing their own under license?

The Soviet Union began purchasing Catalinas and producing their own under license even before World War II. In 1937, one year after the PBY was introduced in the U.S., the Soviet Union negotiated a contract with Consolidated Aircraft to purchase three PBY-2s (Model 28-2), the right to produce the Catalina in the Soviet Union under license, and engineering support from the American company to help set up the flying boat factory in the city of Taganrog. The three Models 28-2s that arrived in the Soviet Union the following year were the only three PBYs to be powered by Wright Cyclone R-1820-G3 engines, each of which was approximately 200 horsepower less than the usual Pratt and Whitney R-1830s that were put in the majority of Catalinas. The different engines made it easier for Soviet engineers to produce their own license-built PBYs, since the Soviet Shvetsov ASh-62 (M-62) was developed from the Shvetsov M-25, which was a license-built variant of the Wright Cyclone R-1820.

In 1938, a party of 18 American engineers from Consolidated were sent to Taganrog on the Sea of Azov to help set up the Soviet Catalina factory. However, much like the Lisunov Li-2 project, which was a license-built version of the DC-3, technical documents needed to be translated from English to Russian, and, more significantly, Consolidated Aircraft’s imperial measurements had to be converted to the Soviet Union’s metric system, a task that took several months. Nevertheless, production of the Soviet-built Catalinas began the following January, and the new aircraft were designated GST (Gidrosamolet transportnii, or seaplane transport). By October 1941, when the German military overtook Taganrog where the Soviet Catalina factory had been located, a total of 27 GSTs had been built.


Unfortunately, little is known about the operational service of the majority of GSTs. In June of 1941, 11 Soviet GSTs were in stationed Sevastopol and were in service with the 80th Reconnaissance Squadron of the Black Sea Fleet. In the immediate aftermath of Operation Barbarossa, these flying boats were engaged mostly in reconnoitering enemy installations and naval bases on the Romanian coast and the western Black Sea, where the aircraft encountered stiff opposition. In the fall of 1941, when the Germans began their Crimean campaign, the Black Sea Fleet began using the remaining GSTs for night bombing missions against Axis encampments. As the Wehrmacht began to enclose Sevastopol, the license-built Catalinas were tasked with helping to evacuate important cargo from the city. By the time the GSTs were relocated to the Caucasus after the Crimea had fallen, only five of the Fleet’s 11 Catalinas were remaining. For the next two years, Soviet flying boats would play only a negligible role in the war against Germany, due both to the fact that the decisive battles of 1942 and 1943 were land operations, and to the fact that the Soviet military’s arsenal of flying boats had been severely depleted by the German onslaught of 1941 and early 1942.

regards

[BrianC]

Hi Johannes

My information implies that Villing and Carganico, although each claimed a GST on 11 JULY 1941, actually only brought down the aircraft commanded by St/Ljt Nickolay Talalkhin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew survived the crash and were captured. Villing's aircraft was then hit by AA fire and he carried out an emergency landing, and walked back to German lines.

According to my records, Villing had previously accounted for a BRM-2 flying boat on 2 JULY

I'll send you a PM.

Cheers
Brian

[BrianC]

Hi Johannes

My information implies that Villing and Carganico, although each claimed a GST on 11 JULY 1941, actually only brought down the aircraft commanded by St/Ljt Nickolay Talalkhin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew survived the crash and were captured. Villing's aircraft was then hit by AA fire and he carried out an emergency landing, and walked back to German lines.

According to my records, Villing had previously accounted for a BRM-2 flying boat on 2 JULY

I'll send you a PM.

Cheers
Brian

[edwest2]

The Catalina's production and foreign service is quite varied.

https://www.airvectors.net/avpby.html#m4