Need help identifying BoB He111 with three stripes on the tail

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Thanx to one of our EoE researchers, a new photo (to me) has surfaced showing the tail of a crashed He111 in a British salvage dump. It clearly has three vertical white or pink stripes on the rudder. This was a type of marking applied to rudders and upper outer wings of several LW bomber geschwader for the mass raids around 15 September 1940.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-tBk...-tBkR4Mw-L.jpg

Peter Cornwell and I both think that this is one of two 5./KG53 He111s that were shot down on 15 September 1940.

Here are our EoE LW loss listings & the contemporary crash reports on the two candidates:

1a) 5./KG53 Heinkel He111H-1 (2771). Harried by repeated fighter attacks and one engine disabled during sortie to bomb London Docks so dumped bombs and belly-landed at West Malling airfield 3.00 p.m. Attacked by various pilots including: F/O R.W. Oxspring, Sgt C.A. Parsons, and Sgt D.A.C. Hunt of No.66 Squadron, P/O H.P. Hill of No.92 Squadron, F/L R.F. Rimmer, F/O V.M. Bright and F/O G.M. Simpson of No.229 Squadron, S/L M.V. Blake of No.238 Squadron, F/O N.K. Stansfeld of No.242 Squadron, P/O K.T. Lofts of No.249 Squadron, S/L J. Sample and F/O P.T. Parsons of No.504 Squadron, and probably also F/O P.W. Lochnan of No.1 (RCAF) Squadron. HS Gefr Erich Sailler and BF Gefr Herbert Lange both killed, BM Uffz Oskar Zilling captured badly wounded, HB Fw Rudolf Lichtenhagen captured wounded, FF Fw Kurt Behrendt captured unhurt. Aircraft A1+AN 100% write-off.

1b) He.111 Crashed on WEST MALLING aerodrome on 15/9 at 1600 hours. Markings A1 + AN (second A outline in white). Spinners red, three vertical pink stripes on both rudders. Fitted with two Jumo 211A engines constructed at Dessau, numbers 51034 and 15420. Following fighter action, port engine cut out through being hit. Large number of 303 strikes reported in wings, fuselage and tail. Aircraft reported to be in fair condition having ended with retracted undercarriage. Standard armament of 6 MG 15’s. All bombs dropped previous to crash. No armour plate found. Crew of five, three wounded, two dead. Standard instruments.

1c) A photo of this a/c, with the tail not visible, appears on P. 429 of Vol 4 of the "LW Crash Archive." My copy of this photograph comes from the Dennis Knight Coll, with the following caption: ""Photograph taken by Mr. Ron Lampand from his workshop in Springfield of the Heinkel exhibited in Horsham, October 4th 1940."

The 2nd possibility is this one:

2a) "5./KG53 Heinkel He111H-2 (5718). Tasked with forward weather reconnaissance for attack on London and both oil radiators badly damaged by fighters after joining the main formation to observe bombing results. Possibly that attacked by P/O R. Mottram and other No.92 Squadron Spitfires. Belly-landed on Trafford Farm, Benenden, 2.30 p.m. BM Fw Ottmar Maier and HS Gefr Alfred Hoffmann both killed, FF Lt Helmut Bähnsch and HB Uffz Siegfried Bauer both captured unhurt, BF Uffz Ernst Buttler captured wounded. Aircraft A1+LN 100% write-off."

2b) He.111 H3 Crashed at OLD TRAFFORD FARM near ROLDVENDEN, on 15/9. markings A1 + LN (L in black outlined in white) 3 vertical pink stripes on rudder. Red spinner fitted with Jumo 211 engine constructed by Mitteldeutscher Motoren, LEIPZIG, Werk nrs 38297, 38252. Fuselage werk nr. Heinkel no.5718. Aircraft crashed following fighter action and in spite of all radiators over engine nacells having the new type armoured slats both radiators were hit probably causing the aircraft to crash. Both wings were covered with oil. Fuselage broke into several portions. Aircraft appears standard for armour, armament and instruments.

Since the first He111, A1+AN, FL on a British Aerodrome and later was on public display, I think it very likely that more photos exist of it somewhere, although probably yet undiscovered by the BoB LW crash research community.

Does anyone have any information about additional photos of either of these a/c?

Here is another photo of a KG53 aircraft carrying these same three tail stripes on its rudder. This one is either A1+BA or A1+DA of the Geschwaderstab. If this is A1+DA, it was also shot down in Britain on 15 September 1940.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-5xm...-5xmnXMd-L.jpg

Your help in locating additional photos of any of these a/c would be greatly appreciated. Information that would help associate the tail in the salvage dump with either of these aircraft would be a big help.

I'm also seeking a better image of the photo of A1+BA/DA in flight.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

As a follow on to this post, there was another loss of a He111 of 5./KG53, A1+DN on 7 September 1940. The "G"-crash report doesn't mention tail stripes and the a/c was apparently badly burned out. I have no photos of the remains of this a/c and would greatly appreciate knowing about them should they exist.

Although we don't know the exact date when the white and "pink" vertical tail stripes (and corresponding wing markings) were first applied to many LW bomber a/c (Do17s, Ju88s & He111s), there are examples from before 15 September and for a few weeks after that date, including some even into October as these markings wore off or were covered over. So, it is quite possible that this a/c also carried them and could been responsible for the tail in the salvage dump.

According to the Revised EOE LW Loss Report::

"7 September 1940: 5./KG53 Heinkel He111H-2 (2777). Attacked by fighters, probably F/L G.R. Edge and F/O L.C. Murch of No. 253 Squadron, following attack on Thameshaven. Then port engine disabled in attack by F/L D.G. Parnall of No. 249 Squadron and also hit by ground-fire prior to belly-landing at Old Marsh, Isle of Grain, 5.30 p.m. BO Oberlt Heinz Bräuer and FF Oberfw Alfred Pitzka both captured unhurt, BM Gefr Ernst Urich and BS Uffz Friedrich Bergmann both captured wounded, BF Obergefr Peter Neumann killed. Aircraft A1+DN fired by crew 100% write-off."

According to the G - Crash Report:

"He.111 Crashed at OLD MARSH, Isle of Grain (map reference N. 3295) on the 7.9.40 at 1715 hours. Markings A1+ DN (D in black outlined in white). Spinner red. Jumo 211 A engines., but engines plate showed number 45388. Constructed at Dessau. Aircraft made good landing but crew set fire to it and the wreckage was burnt out. Reported hit by A.A. fire and that Spitfire hit port engine. Crew of 5. Armament: Five M.G. Instruments all burnt."

Of course, it is possible that any other He111 losses to KG53 during mid-September 1940 probably also carried this marking on the tail, but at present I have no other examples to work from. If anyone has further photos showing these on this unit's aircraft please let me know.

[Thomas H]

Hi Larry,

I can´t help you with photos of he111's that crashed in England.

but maybe this information is of interest.

A crew that also crashed on 15 September 1940 is the crew of Schmidtborn

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ht=schmidtborn

Peter mentions here the fact that the crew was part of 6./KG53. You examples were also flown by crews of 6./KG53. In the case of schmidtborn, the crew was flying a 4./KG53 he111 and in your two examples flying 5./KG53 he111's.

A he111 of 4./KG53, propably A1+AM, crashlanded in november 1940 in Vandeville after a nightflight. It aslo has the three stripes on rudder and wings. I don't know if there is any loss report on this crash.

See my last post in this thread

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...highlight=kg53

I have two more photo's of this crash.

Kind regards, Thomas

[Chris Goss]

Of interest, I have just obtained a series of photos showing A1+CC crash-landed at Lille-Vendeville on 5 Sep 40; no rudder markings or unit markings at all & this crew was then shot down on 15 Sep 40 (Schmidtborn crew)

[steve sheridan]

Chris with regards to A1+CC crashlanding at Lille-Vendeville 5.9.40, do you have details of the crew. I know you say its that of Schmidtborn, I have listed one NCO as wounded but no name. Could you confirm who was wounded?
Best regs,
Steve.

[Peter Cornwell]

Stab II./KG53 Heinkel He111H-2 (3143). Belly-landed at Vendeville undercarriage damaged by fighters during post-attack photo-reconnaissance sortie over Hornchurch airfield. HS Gefr Joachim Kupfer wounded in right thigh and left hand - admitted to Calmette hospital in Lille, FF Oberfw Gunther Schmidtborn, BO Oberlt Hans-Peter Schierning, BF Uffz Max Nagl, and BM Uffz Eugen Schilling all unhurt. Aircraft A1+CC 20% damaged but repairable.
Crew attached from 6 Staffel to make good recent heavy losses within the Stabsschwarm.

[steve sheridan]

Good afternoon Peter, that sums it up perfectly.
Kindest regs for the clarification.
Steve.

[Chris Goss]

I am not sure but believe that Schmidtborn was promoted to Ofw as a result of his skill in landing A1+CC?

[steve sheridan]

Hi Chris that's interesting to know.
Do you know anything more regarding his earlier service, did he serve in the French or Polish campaigns.
Best regs,
Steve.

[Chris Goss]

I get the impression he was an experienced pilot but can add nothing more definite