P-51 Gun Cam ID help

[researcher111]

Can anyone identify the FG , the dates and the pilots involved on the both gun cam shots ? the shots belong to two separate engagements back in April 1945
whereby two P-51's were shot down , with no reference to dates and claimed by the Soviets .

[Frank Olynyk]

These may be the two Mustangs claimed by Ivan Kozhidub, from, I believe the 359th Fighter Group (book title, Mustangs & Unicorns, by Jack Smith), if I am remembering the incident correctly. He claimed two, but only got one in reality. One pilot was a Russian POW, the other dived away and returned to base. The book is hidden in one of several stacks which I can't search easily.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[researcher111]

Frank

Right on , were claimed by Kozhedub though not sure if 355 or 359 FG , do you by chance know the date and location ? Thanks in advance

[Ota Jirovec]

Hello,

Kozhedub´s claims against US Mustangs (and the related guncam stills) are very likely a bogus story "invented" by some less credible Russian authors in 1990s - they have been discussed on this forum intensively some ten years ago.

The fact is that Eighth AF Mustangs encountered VVS aircraft in several friendly-fire incidents in spring of 1945, the most notable date being probably 18 March 1945, when 359th Fighter Group pilots shot down 4 Yaks of 3 IAK (namely from its 291 IAP and 812 IAP) in the vicinity of Mohrin airfield (and suffered no losses to VVS themselves). The 8th AF nevertheless lost 3 Mustangs to Russians in other encounters on this date, at least 2 of them to VVS fighters:
2/Lt Albert L. Peterson, 487th FS, 352nd FG, P-51D-15 44-15369, POW (MACR 13415) and
2/Lt Garnedt D. Page, 350th FS, 353rd FG, P-51D-15 44-15137, returned (MACR 13414) - shot down by two La-5s
(besides that 1/Lt Joe P. Vickery was shot down and killed by Soviet AA).
No Kozhedub´s involment confirmed by Soviet primary sources have been found by serious Russian researchers so far, IIRC.

As far as alleged "Kozhedub´s" Mustang guncam stills are concerned, Mikhail Bykov who has gone thoroughly through TsAMO documents stated that they are completely different than other 176 GIAP gun camera photographs shown in this regiment´s photo album.

Hope this helps a little,

Ota

[researcher111]

Ota

I agree with you regarding bogus stories , lots of Russian WWII claims seems to bear little or not at all credibility. An other similar top scorring Ace also from 176th GvIAP namely Evstigneev claimed a FW-200 near Kishinew early April 44, though I could not find it either nor the Soviets were willing to confirm his claim . Back in 1944 in an other friendly fire incident the Russians attacked a group of 15th AF P-38's which mistakenly straffed Sovit ground force, leading to the downing of 3 Soviet fighters and 2 P-38's .

Thanks for the update

[Ota Jirovec]

Researcher111,

I believe we should distinguish between official claims and straightaway bogus stories. Evstigneev did not fly with 176 GIAP, but with 240 IAP/178 GIAP (Kozhedub´s former unit). He made no official claim for an Fw-200 in early April 1944, his closest claims being 1 Me 109 north of Iasi on 29 March and 1 Ju 88 and 1 Fw 190 on 17 April 1944 (according to "Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy" book). That the VVS overclaimed (sometimes very heavily) is another story....

As far as the friendly fire incident you mentioned, this is a well known encounter between parts of the 82nd Fighter Group and 866 IAP´s Yaks over Nis on 7 November 1944 and it is covered in reasonable detail in primary reports of both sides.

Ota

[Alfred.MONZAT]

I've read somewhere that Ivan Kozhidub's so called gun cam films may have been captured german ones

Regards

Alfred

[researcher111]

Ota , it was a typo at my end I referred to 240/178 . Regarding your remarks he made no official claim , he made a claim but was not homologated. I guess you
understand Russian ...therefore read this

На этой машине ему довелось сражаться под Яссами. В начале Апреля над Кишинёвским аэродромом, на малой высоте он сбил 4-моторный FW-200 "Кондор". Но этот "раритет" официально не был записан на его боевой счёт. В 27 боевых вылетах под Яссами и в 13 воздушных боях старший лейтенант Евстигнеев сбил 7 вражеских самолётов.

Regarding the 82nd FG over Nis yes is covered elsewhere, it was a side remark at my end , don't know on what context you u mentioned this again . I don't know what you mean by closest claim , if this is about location then the last claim is a 109 dated June 5,44 near Iasi . As into the book you mentioned the last update is called Bseh Aseh Stalina by Bakov, as into Evstigneev suggest you read his memoirs chapter "Over The Skies of Romania" .

[Ota Jirovec]

Researcher111,

The text quoted by you comes from an airaces.narod.ru webpage, which should be generally read with great caution (as other internet resources based on Soviet-era memoirs), so I would be very sceptical about Evstigneev claiming an Fw 200, unless proven otherwise by some more reliable source.

I just stated Evstigneev´s closest claims to show that there were no official claims by Evstigneev between 29 March and 17 April 1944. And yes, I have the latest "Vse Asy Stalina" book, but unfortunately at home, so I am not able to check it right now (but I assume Evstigneev´s entry will not be much different from that in earlier "Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy" book).

Ota

[researcher111]

Once again I don't understand what you are trying to say ! If you would review my post again u'd note that me too , I doubted his FW200 claim. I also don't agree with you at all
that all Russians claims were highly exagerated and bogus stories, they were as exagerated or as less exagerated as those Axis and even those of your country pilots .
Suggest you review all Russians publications before making further remarks , if you don't agree we can leave it here,period.