Are they aces or not????

[JACK COOK]

I was curous has to whether or not these gents are actually aces. They're not credited with 5 on the Maxwell site but I've seen references
or other sites and publications.
Jack Walker 82nd FG
Ivan Hasek 354th FG
Charles Cleveland 4th FIW Korea
Marion Owens 370th FG
any others.............................

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by JACK COOK

I was curous has to whether or not these gents are actually aces. They're not credited with 5 on the Maxwell site but I've seen references
or other sites and publications.
Jack Walker 82nd FG
Ivan Hasek 354th FG
Charles Cleveland 4th FIW Korea
Marion Owens 370th FG
any others.............................

Frank Olynyk, a frequent visitor to this Board can comment further, but his book, Stars And Bars, is the single best source for such information. It is the standard reference on the subject of US Aces. According to his listings:

Walker, not listed.
Hasek, 4 confirmed plus several probables and damaged.
Cleveland, not listed
Owens, not listed

[JACK COOK]

They may have been recognised by the Fighter Aces Official (only to them that is) victory claims board. The AF lists Hasek with only 3.

[drgondog]

You already know this, but USAF 85 took on the task of actually reviewing all USAAF victory credits and went through each official document, claim to supporting statements to awards and then (theoretically) published only the destroyed and the claimant if there was a witness or gun camera film to support it - I know of several exceptions. For example Joe Lang was KIA on 14 October, 1944 after 'calling for help and claiming two 109's in the fight while being trapped by 10 more'.

So there was some subjectivity that entered the system. Frank did a great service in extending USAF 85 and bring in AVG, Navy/Marine, etc into the fold.

Wayne Jorda, first president of American Fighter Aces Association was removed from the association after USAF 85 came out as well as many others who had 5 or more combined air and ground from 8th AF. Jorda had four confirmed plus a probable, for example.

An aside on the subject of 8th AF policy of counting ground scores same as air victories. I wonder how many KIA/POW were unnecessary because fighter pilots in the 8th wer 'incented' to have a ground score count the same as an air score when the Luftwaffe was rarely seen? I know my father's group had huge losses to flak (2:1 over air combat), including several of it's true aces. Henry Brown, Norm Olson, Bill Cullerton, and my father Bert Marshall( he was rescued to fight another day) were never touched in air to air but got clobbered from German flak.

Look across the board to Gabreski, Goodson, Godfrey, Beeson, Beckham, Gerald Johnson, (even Preddy shot down by flak even if our own). Too many top guys whacked in the weeds.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by JACK COOK

They may have been recognised by the Fighter Aces Official (only to them that is) victory claims board. The AF lists Hasek with only 3.

Jack, you are correct.
Olynyk also lists 3 for Hasek---aging eyes on my part!

Others can comment, but I doubt that Frank would have missed the others having kills, especially 4. The lack of any listing indicates they were likely not close to Ace status.

The Fighter Victory Credits Board is a sometimes thing. The 1957 version, for example, removed a credit for Preddy, one for which he was awarded a Bronze Star for saving a B-17 crew. When they were supplied with the official citation listing the confirmation, the Board quietly restored the credit to Preddy's total, but never acknowledged they'd made a mistake.

[shooshoobaby]

jack - on March 16, 45 lt. Hasek claimed 4.5 Vics. The Victory board reviewed these and cut it to 2 Vics. In book 354th FG by William Hess ,
Hasek is listed as Ace - 5 Vics. Call Kelly?
Mike