Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5

[focusfocus]

Hello all and happy new year 2017

1) in his biography,among his twenty victories,Kurt Hammel 4/JG5 is credited with a Pe-2 in May 42 (Alakurti) and three DB-3 in june 42 (Banak) with no specific date.

2) On his six? "abschuss" with III/JG5 (Gunther Scholz),I have only three of these.
06/02/42
18/05/42 (30.?)
14/07/42

Not having the last vol.of its serie,what does Jochen Prien say?

thanks in advance

michel

[Brian]

Hi Michel

Re Kurt Hammel, he claimed a Pe-2 on 28/5/42, and three DB-3Fs on 19/7/42 (not June).

What is the title of his autobiography? Is it still available? Do you have a copy?

Happy New Year

Brian

[Johannes]

Hi Michel
You are correct with Scholz's six with Stab.III./JG 5(all against Russians). The first five were as a Hauptmann, the last a Major:-

6th February 1942 P-40 1110 hrs Nr.28
24th March 1942 Hurricane 1825 hrs Nr.29
18th May 1942 Hurricane 20km W Murmansk 1025 hrs Nr.30
14th July 1942 Hurricane near Murmaschi 1235 hrs Nr.31
12th August 1942 MiG-1 1430 hrs Nr.32
18th August 1942 P-40 W Cap Korabelayj 1624 hrs Nr.33

Scholz died not so log ago aged 102-103 am hoping his flugbuch might turn-up soon......not at all sure what he did after May 1944 when he gave-up command of JG 5.

Kind regards

Johannes

[gaupe75]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Scholz died not so log ago aged 102-103 am hoping his flugbuch might turn-up soon......not at all sure what he did after May 1944 when he gave-up command of JG 5.

He moved one step further up to Jagdfliegerführer Norwegen, he took over his old responsibility in addition, when Ehrler was dismissed.

[focusfocus]

Great! and thank you all

Brian
I read about twenty years ago a biography on Hammel,not an AUTObiography and I archived some information that now I come out.

michel

best regards

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Just received Ingo Mobius's book on Scholz yesterday. The earlier claims listed are a perfect match to the micro films, with exception only to the type of aircraft(these are recorded on the micro films as short codes like I-26). But the JG 5 claims are not so accurate. Of the six I listed five are found on the micro films, so can be no doubt.

Mobius lists two I do not, could be unconfirmed, or a mistake. He states he had no flugbuch to work from. There is the possibility that the daily micro film entries for Stab.III./JG 5 didn't start until late, and as the earlier typed-out Staffel micro film claims have not survived that he has additional information, but then he should have all those I can confirm with the micro films....which he doesn't.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

All

With regard to Scholz there is a clear problem with his claim on 6.2.1942.
Checking various sources, including Möbius biography, it is quite clear that this claim (in fact not even included by Möbius) had to be with 7./JG 54. On 6.2.1942 III./JG 5 had not yet been formed (21.3.1942 is the date I have)

Looking at Möbius time-frame Scholz became Kommandeur of IV./JG 1 on 11.2.1942 that is five days after his claim on 6.2.1942. IV./JG 1 became III./JG 5 on 21.3.1942 with Scholz continuing in command, and this date by Möbius fits my own above. It also has to be remembered that IV./JG 1 aka III./JG 5 at the time was spread out in western Norway and it took some time before two staffeln worked their way to the Finnish/Soviet front. Don't know exactly when the Stab arrived but not before April anyway, so it is impossible for Scholz to have been anywhere near any Soviet front line between 11.2.42 and sometime during spring that same year.

Since Johannes lists the claim on 6.2.1942 there must be something on the microfilms, but, since Möbius leaves the claim out, how certain is it to be 'our' Scholz and if it is why is it listed with III./JG 5, a unit not yet formed?

Cheers
Stig

[Kapper]

Stig,

Maybe there is possibly another explanation.

In Priens JFV series, he does not have the claim of 06.02.42 listed but has an additional 3 claims to Scholz in 1943 including one on 05.02.43 which is at the same time and a slightly different Grid location as the 1942 claim. This could be another case of misidentification of the hand written files that were microfilmed which can be difficult to read or a case of a simple transcription error.

Just to show how easy a transcription error can happen - in Johannes list above the last claim that he listed is 18.08.42 and noted the rank of Major when making the claim, yet Scholz wasn't promoted until 01.04.43 and most sources list this claim as 18.08.43 - so likely a transcription error from Johannes.

Regards,

Craig...

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well Craig

There are always more than one way of thinking, interpreting and so on.

With regard to any claim on 6.2.1942 or 5.2.1943 I have basically no comment.
All I am saying is that IF Scholz claimed on 6.2.1942 he was NOT with III./JG 5

The date 18.8.1942 (as listed by Johannes) is a typing error here. In his book Johannes quite correctly lists it on 18.8.1943.

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I'll look into that of 6th February 1942......it is the one not on the micro films, but pre micro film. Not listed in Ingo Mobius's book on Scholz. That for 5th March(not February) 1943 should have been on the micro films, not was not. However Scholz himself was very specific about it an Il-2 over his airfield at 1200 hrs, should have been witnessed by ground staff if lacking an air witness, but seems to remain unconfirmed.
Ingo says he didn't work from a flugbuch, probably took abschüße list from Prien publication, or has micro films himself, but if he did he'll have had the JG 5 claims which he generally doesn't.
So I think the 6th February 1942 claim is bogus, but the 5th March 1943 is genuine, but unconfirmed. There is also a claim for 28th April 1942 in the book, but I believe it's confused this that of 24th March 1943. The details of this last one are vague in the book.
Book also quotes that Scholz was told that ALL documents for Wehrmacht forces in Norway were to be destroyed in 1945!

Kind Regards

Johannes