2./ KG 60 28.11.1942

[Karsten]

Gentlemen,

the 2./ KG 60 lost two Ju 88 144298 and 144 295 in the area of Bône.
I have only the names of the pilots Denewitz and Hönle.
Can anybody help with the rest of the crew members?
Thanks in advance
Rüdiger

[Matti Salonen]

1942-11-29, 2./KG 60, Ju 88 A-14, 144298, P1+MK, (Westlich Mittelmeer)
Flugzeugführer Uffz Dennewitz (Dennweitz?), Richard, vermißt
Kampfbeobachter Gefr Paulista, Rudolf, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Köhnlein, Rudolf, vermißt
Bordschütze Gefr Mahr, Kurt, vermißt
Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
1942-11-30, 2./KG 60, Ju 88 A-14, 144295, P1+GK, (Westlich Mittelmeer)
Flugzeugführer Ofw Thaerigen, Gerhard, vermißt
Kampfbeobachter Uffz Steinhoff, Karl, vermißt
Bordfunker Gefr Loss, Helmut, vermißt
Bordschütze Ogfr Raub, Albert, vermißt
Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.

Matti

[Karsten]

Thanks Matti

Rüdiger

[Stig Jarlevik]

Rüdiger

Out of interest, from where did you get the name Hönle as one of the pilots?

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Maybe from this:
1942-11-27, 6./KG 77, Ju 88 A-4, 141020, 3Z+AC, 110 km nördlich Algier
Flugzeugführer Lt Hönle, Maximilian, vermißt
Kampfbeobachter Gefr Bunn, Heinz-Wilhelm, gefangen
Bordfunker Uffz Stolte, Franz-Hubert, vermißt
Bordschütze Ogfr Streit, Viktor, vermißt
Beschuß von Beaufighter. Bruch 100 %. Bunn mit Fallschirm abgesprungen. NVM: Original Datum 1942-11-28 geändert.

Matti

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Matti, just curious, as many bomber losses suffered by the Luftwaffe in MTO were at night, do you have an indication if a loss suffered on a given date, say 29 November 1942, was on the night of 28-29, on the day of 29 or on the night of 29-30 ? I notice that in some of you posts you provide the hour of loss or the hour of the take off, so I guess that if you don't give it, you don't have it. Thanks again for your heavy contribution to this forum.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Matti

That must be it! Magnificent as usual

Cheers
Stig

[Karsten]

Stig,

Matti is right,
it was the Ju 88 from KG 77. My mistake

Rüdiger

[Stig Jarlevik]

No worries Rüdiger

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Laurent,


Your curiosity is very valid but my answer will not be especially exact. Because my database accepts only correct date format YYYY-MM-DD I cannot use slash like in 28/29 and therefore have to choose either of those days. If start time is available (which is too seldom the case) I can calculate some estimate for possible crash time and day. If no time information is available (as usual), I choose the next day simply because max flight time ends more probably after midnight for flights at night.
That may make to my data +/- 1 day difference of actual, correct date, which everyone should take into consideration, when comparing information from several different sources. We should also remember that the Luftwaffe units in fact had similar problems when reporting losses. I have a strong feeling that depending on the unit, some have reported the aircraft missing on the day when it started and some after the max flight time had exhausted, i.e the next day. That may have a reason, why fairly many of the NVMs of missing aircraft at WASt have hand-written changes of date. Because majority of the surviving NVMs at WASt are the copies originally distributed to the GQM, these changes seem to be based on material loss info sent by the units to GQM.
I have not found any regulations related to material loss reporting, but hopefully somebody can educate me on this matter.
So, do not trust any source, whether it is mine, other real researcher’s data or even an official war-time document without comparing it with other sources.

There is also another problem, which may have at least slight effect to timing of losses: different time systems (this has been discussed on the TOCH previously to some extent). German documents are relatively easy, because the only anomaly is German summer time. But what about other countries? Did UK authorities use always GMT? HW 5 –reports have at the end a note that all times are GMT, but what about other documents? What about French and Russian documents? I must confess that I have no real knowledge on these, but would like to know much more.

Finally, Merry Xmas to you and to every TOCH member, who is reading this,

Matti