JG 2 vs. Spitfires on 8th Sept. 1943

[Lagarto]

I'm trying to establish losses (if any) suffered by JG 2, which in the morning of 8th Sept. 1943, in the vicinity of Lille, mixed it up with Spitfires escorting B-26 Marauders. Thanks in advance!

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I have only one registered loss due to enemy action on this date, a Bf 109G-6 WNr 15936 from 4./J.G.2 reported lost at a location called Vordrel, the pilot, Lt. Werner Bäckers KIA.

This is the only loss for JG 2 reported to GenQu 6 Abt for this date where the loss reason was any kind of enemy action.

Regards,
Andreas

[Fredo Hara]

Bonsoir,
In the excellent new book of the JG 2 Richthofen, Christian Federl, the author, give an other pilot :
Uffz. Hans-August Carstensen (1./JG2) , died the 8th Sept 1943 at Conches. The reason of the crash is "Absturz n.Werkstattflug"
Fredo

[Lagarto]

Thank you!
By the way, was 4./JG 2 the only Stafflel in JG 2, which in that period flew Bf 109s?

[SMF144]

Lagarto,

Here is some information that might help with your query.

Stephen


“STARKY” No.41, PART I
TARGET – LILLE/FORD AERODROME.
CLOSE ESCORT – 130, 234, and 401, 411, 412 (R.C.A.F.) Squadrons SPITFIRES V.
ESCORT COVER – 131, 504, 302, 317 Squadrons, SPITFIRES V.
HIGH COVER – 129, 222 Squadrons, SPITFIRES IX
TOP COVER – 19, 65, 122, SPITFIRES IX
R/V – N. FORELAND at 0900 hrs.
RESULTS – 61 MARAUDERS bombed, dropping 91 tons of bombs, results being fair to good. Stiff fighter opposition was encountered both approaching and leaving the target. As a result of combats, 302 destroyed 2 Me.109s and 1 Fw.190, and probably destroyed 1 Fw.190 while 317 destroyed 3 Me.109’s and damaged 1 Me.109, for the loss of 2 SPITFIRES and pilots of 302*. 1 SPITFIRE V of 302 was damaged but this pilot is safe. The high cover WING was bounced by 10 – 12 Fw.190s near the target, and 1 pilot and SPITFIRE of 222 are missing.
FIGHTER SWEEP. 303, 316, 124 Squadrons, SPITFIRES IX swept the SANGATTE/DOUAI/CAMBRAI/LILLE areas, seeing some E/A but these were engaged by the other SPIT formations.

[Lagarto]

Thank you AMF144 for the info.
Apparently, quite a few Bf 109s fell prey to Spitfires on that day. The question is - who lost them? According to Caldwell, not III./JG 26, although they did scrap with Spitfires over Lille. If it wasn't JG 2, who else - JG 1 or JG 11? Weren't they a bit too far up north-east for that?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

III./JG 1 was based at Woensdrecht and lost for example 5 Bf 109 on 4 September 1943 in Dunkerque area, so may have flown over N France but the only loss JG 1 on 8 Sep 43 is a Fw 190 of I./JG 1 destroyed at 90% at Hees after a technical problem.

On the other hand, JG 26 suffered three losses this day: two Fw 190 of I./JG 26 (both pilot WIA) and a Bf 109 G-6 of III./JG 26 (pilot KIA), all to Spitfires but the Bf 109 loss is fitting more a 222 Sqn in an afternoon raid, while the Fw 190 were downed at unknown time but so probably during the morning battle.

And the Fight Command War Diaries by Foreman gave more victories than the numbers of SMF144, but may include nearby raids. According to Foreman, the operation (Ramrond S-41) saw claims for 10:2:5 and four losses (SMF144 has 6:1:1 and 3 losses). Details below:
91 Sqn: 1:0:0 claim, 1 loss (pilot MIA)
222 Sqn: 1 loss (pilot MIA)
302 Sqn: 5:0:1 claims, 2 losses (pilots MIA)
317 Sqn: 3:0:1 claims
331 Sqn: 1:0:2 claims
402 Sqn: 0:1:0 claim
403 Sqn: 0:0:1 claim
North Weald Wing: 0:0:1 claim

All this was part of operation Starkey a fake Allied invasion in Boulogne area in 7-9 September 1943. The operation main goals were to provide training for the real invasion and mainly to draw the Luftwaffe into a battle (like what was done over Dieppe) but was an almost total failure in the second aspect.

[RT]

I could confirm the loss for 8.sept for Carstensen /GVM-43 7110 n.8/, to add to the bf109 of Verdrel/Vordrel Andreas has given, 1 bf109 for 8.JG26 /18829/ bei Lens /30 km south Lille/ Absturtz lufkampf, others are 2 FW190 from I.JG26 .1943 is well covered by gen.verl.meld. but some pages are rather unreadable…
That day JG11 lossed also a couple of planes but around Jever
Lille-vendeville received that day some bombs half a dozen of planes were damaged/destroyed

remi