Consumption of J2 fuel at Coulommiers, France in August 1944?

[Karoband]

Good afternoon,

This ULTRA message is XL7636, REF. CX/MSS/T285/45, transmitted at 23 2024z/8/44, and can be found in DEFE 3 124, p. 138 on the National Archives web site:

"ITEM-TWO FUEL AT (FAIR INDICATIONS COULOMMIERS £ COULOMMIERS) COLON ON TWENTY FIRST)) CONSUMED TWO POINT FIVE TONS. ON TWENTY SECOND RECEIVED TWO EIGHT TONS, STOCKS EIGHT TWO TONS (COMMENT. ITEM-TWO FUEL USED BY ME £ ME TWO SIX TWO. FOR COULOMMIERS £ COULOMMIERS AS BASE AIRFIELD IN THIS CONNECTION SEE XL £ XL FIVE EIGHT TWO ONE)"

See ULTRA message XL7842 in DEFE 3 125, p. 196 for the order: "ON TWENTY THIRD TRANSPORT AWAY FROM COULOMMIERS £ COULOMMIERS STOCKS OF JIG TWO..."

Is there any other evidence that Ar 234s or Me 262s actually used Coulommiers as a base on or before 21 August 1944? or is there some other explanation?

Best regards,

Jim

[Dan O'Connell]

Jim, wasn't the unit later known as KG 51 there? One of their first areas of operation.

[RT]

Juvincourt ! 100 km as flew the birds from there

Rémi

[Nick Beale]

I have attached to two CX/MSS messages that XL7636 refers to.

When I researched jet operations in France, I only found evidence for operations from Juvincourt (the two Ar 234s of Kdo. Götz and the four/five Me 262s of Kdo. Schenck). As far as I can tell, Kso. Schenck did not arrive in France until 24 August but Kdo. Götz flew its first operation on 2 August.

[Karoband]

Thank you, Nick, for the original messages. The consumption of "3.1" cubic metres has been converted by Bletchley to "TWO POINT FIVE TONS".

Jan Horn, in Das Fleurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), pp. 132-133, has Kdo. Schenck transferring from Lechfeld to France in stages from 20 August to its arrival on 23 August citing the flugbuch of Ofw. Hieronymus Lauer who arrived in Juvincourt from Schwabisch Hall at 18:25 hours (German time) that day.

Also, all the books I have on Kdo. Gotz make no mention of an operation from Coulommiers. So, unless someone has further evidence, this will remain a mystery for now.

best regards,

Jim

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Karoband

Also, all the books I have on Kdo. Gotz make no mention of an operation from Coulommiers. So, unless someone has further evidence, this will remain a mystery for now.

best regards,

Jim

I researched and wrote half a book on the subject and many years ago corresponded with pilots Erich Sommer and Werner Muffey. Juvincourt was the only French aerodrome that Kdo. Götz operated from.

[ouidjat]

Jet fuel density 0.775 to 0.840.
3.1x0.8=2.48. More or less 2.5 Tons. Didn't find J2 density.

[leonventer]

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Karoband

Also, all the books I have on Kdo. Gotz make no mention of an operation from Coulommiers.

I'd be very interested to know which books those are. It'd be greatly appreciated if you could list them.

I have Horn's "Das Fleurschaden-Geschwader" and Nick's "Arado Ar 234 Bomber and Recce Units", but I'm always on the lookout for additional references.

Thanks much,
Leon Venter

[Karoband]

Originally Posted by leonventer

Hi Jim,

I'd be very interested to know which books those are. It'd be greatly appreciated if you could list them.

I have Horn's "Das Fleurschaden-Geschwader" and Nick's "Arado Ar 234 Bomber and Recce Units", but I'm always on the lookout for additional references.

Thanks much,
Leon Venter

Hi Leon,

Besides the two you mention, I also consulted Smith, Creek and Petrick, On Special Missions: The Luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923-1945, (2003), and Philippe Baudin, Hitler's Spyplane over Normandy 1944, (2014 edition in English). The latter is the definitive book on Ar 234 operations in France.

Best regards,

Jim

[leonventer]

Much obliged, Jim!

Regards,
Leon Venter