Soviet HSU fighter-pilot loss, 27.10.44

[yogybär]

In Hungary, a group of 2 fighters and a Il-2 flying Reccon was shot down by german fighters on the above-mentioned date.

One of the fighter pilots was a HSU acc. to a german source. What is known about his identity, rank, plane etc.?

[yogybär]

bump... does maybe someone know a link to a list of VVS-HSU's in th enet, so that I can check that one?

[Andrey Dikov]

www.warheroes.ru

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by yogybär

bump... does maybe someone know a link to a list of VVS-HSU's in th enet, so that I can check that one?

Or http://ilpilot.narod.ru/index.html

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Jörg,

I am afraid, you won't find that particular pilot, because it seems, that Lipfert's remembrace is inaccurate regarding this event.

[yogybär]

Hm... at least the date fits to the kill-list of II/JG52, where Lipfert is mentioned with 1xIL-2 and 1xYak as well as Steins with a Yak.

Would have been interesting to see who from which IAP in what plane was thbe victim.

Anyway, you may be right, I couldn't find a clue so far.

[HGabor]

Hi,

Well, I think the research is not hopeless at all, since there is some help available. Hartmann shot down Il-2, while Lipfert downed a Yak-7 near Királydomb (Hajdúnánás-W, sq.18156) this day. The mission area was in the middle of the op. area of the 5th soviet VA, so the losses had to belong to the 5th VVS. Since Lipfert reported a Yak-7, it had to be a Malcolm type plane, - so no bubble cockpit. In fact these kind of planes were probably old Yak-1s, mainly used by the 5th VVS, 331. IAD, 122. IAP. (Many Yak-9 victories in late 1944 were also misidentified Yak-1b planes, etc.)

Usually the 122. IAP used the old Yak planes in the 5th VA, the other Yak units, eg. the GvIAPs usually received the new planes (eg. Yak-3, Yak-9U) before all the others.

In short, my opinion is you need to start your search with the HSUs of the white nose122. IAP.

Would be so great to get a copy of the diary of the 122. IAP from Russian archives for the 27th. I hope this helps, cheers,

Gabor

[yogybär]

Hi Gabor,

your hint leading to 122.IAP is very good! Do you know where "18 129, 12 156 and 18 126" is?

Small correction of the claims:
Hptm. Helmut Lipfert 6./JG 52 Il-2mH. 18 129: 1200m
Hptm. Helmut Lipfert 6./JG 52 Jak-7 18 156: 800m
Ofhr. Steins 6./JG 52 Jak-7 18 126: 600m

Hartmann was not involved in this specific mission. Steins had to bellyland due to unsufficient fuel after this emergency mission.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Well, maybe the detailed 5 VA materials would help, but it is still a mistake, because on that day they did not lost any HSU fighter pilots (thats' why I said, that Lipfert's remembrance is not 100% correct)
In some 'half-official' sources contains errors regarding lost HSU pilots as well, but these sources not mention any loss form that day as well, according to my knowledge (for example Zhigulenkov from 178 giap did not killed on 7 February, 1945 but on 16 November, 1944, as the big HSU book states too, check the details of my aces book about his probable defeater)

But Jörg, of course, you should ask our VVS experts, there are some researchers with unique knowledge regarding Stalin's Falcons. Maybe they know more (but in the mentioned area, according to my knowledge, not any HSU fighter pilot killed in other date as well, so this story must be wrong, altough his book is excellent and his remembrances are quite accurate, I found in his book at least one additional flail too)

But to me, Lipfert's book is still the best pilot remembrance from the WW II;-)

[HGabor]

Hi Jorg,

well, the plane Yak-7 still refers to the 122. IAP, - the pilot: HSU or not HSU, doesn't really matter here. The Germans reported all bubble cockpit Soviet planes as 'Yak-9', so if it was reported as Yak-7, it had to be visually different, ie. Malcolm type. Other 5th VVS Yak units used bubble cockpit planes (Yak-1b, Yak-9T/K/D, later Yak-3 and Yak-9U), so I still recommend to search for the losses of the 122. IAP. That unit, by the way, was full of novices and had significant losses in the theatre. Wasn't unusual to lose 4 planes in one mission. Usually they got the old planes too. In late 1944 the Yak-7 had very poor performance vs. the axis fighters. It would be so nice to obtain a copy of the war diary of this (and many other) unit(s)... Any idea where? Thanks,

Gabor