First Me 163 kill

[DaveM2]

Folks

In early August 1944 Lt. Ryll scored the first victory for the 163 over a B-17. Does anyone have the actual date?

TIA
Dave

[Ferreira]

August 16th, 1944.

[DaveM2]

Thanks, but according to the Späte book, 16 August was a major combat with several aicraft shot down, however he mentions the first successful combat was during the first week of August with a single victory to Ryll.

regards
Dave

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I have read that the first claims made by the Me 163 occurred on 5 August 1944 when three P-51 fighters of the 352nd FG, USAAF were claimed by two fighters of I./JG 400. I have no idea if these claims can be verified through USAAF loss lists but it appears doubtful. The first known claims with the Me 163 were recorded on 16 August 1944 when Leutnant Hartmut Ryll, Feldwebel Herbert Straznicky and Feldwebel Siegfried Schübert each claimed a B-17 HSS although both Ryll and Straznicky were shot down, the former by 1/Lt Cyril Jones of the 359th FG, USAAF and the later by tail gunner Sgt H Kaysen of the 305th BG, USAAF. Although Straznicky was able to bale out Ryll was killed in Me 163 B-1 "White 11" (W.Nr. 163 100). It is my understanding that the first verified USAAF loss to the Me 163 occurred on 24 August 1944. I hope this helps.


Horrido!

Leo

[DaveM2]

Thanks Leo-no P-51s were mentioned in the Späte book, Rylls kill stated as being a B-17 in the first week of August.....

Dave

[kaki3152]

The account of the the three 352nd FG being downed came from "The Mighty Eight" by Freeman:
".The report of a B-17 radio operator...indicated 'Within two minutes after turning at the initial point I saw puffing vapor trails at about 35,000 ft about 9 o'clock to our course. They flew in direction of our formation, then turned to attack 3 P-51s which were flying approx 3,000 ft above and to the left of our formation.The jets dived onto the P-51s which were about 8 o'clock to our formation at the time. The 163s were in trail as they swooped down on the P-51s. The attacks were pressed almost to point blank range, then the enemy airplanes zoom climbed into the clear sky above. I saw each of the three P-51s catch fire and dive earthward.' Three 352nd Group P-51s were missing."

Only problem with this is that only two 352nd FG P-51s were lost on this date, both pilots being POWs in a fight with Bf-109s.

Jeff Ethell in his book on the Me-163 discounted the P-51 shoot down by the Me-163s. Its a mystery what the B-17 radio operator saw....?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

If there is only one report, could the radio operator not have confused condensation trails left by Bf 109s for jet aircraft, that intelligence officers had probably talked about to be expected ?

A similar phenomenom as the numerous Fw 190 with "long-nose" claims made in summer 1944, because Allied pilots were told they will soon meet them. They did not meet before autumn, but tens were claimed in the summer.

[Ferreira]

Hi Dave,

Maybe this help: http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/units.htm

5 August 1944 Several Komets reported by USAAF bombers and fighters, and one bomber crew reported three P-51's being shot down. Reports are inconsistent however.

16 August 1944 Five aircraft operational, launched against 1000+ US bomber formation. One Komet shot down near Böhlen by B-17 tail gunner ; Wnr unknown, pilot Feldwebel Straznicky used his parachute. Leutnant Hartmut Ryll attacks two B-17's (both return home), but is shot down by P-51's. The Komet explodes, Ryll is killed, wreck impacts near Bad Lausick (Wnr 3100..). Two more Komets attack bombers.

Cheers,
Franklin

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

The information posted regarding the alleged action on 5 August 1944 is in agreement with what I have read previously in that it is based mainly on the testimony of a B-17 crewman but not much else. It should be noted that even before this date there were reports of encounters with the Me 163, including on 28 July 1944 when eight P-51 fighters of the 359th FG, USAAF had contact with five aircraft of 1./JG 400, 29 July 1944 when Capt Arthur Jeffery of the 479th FG, USAAF claimed to have shot down a Me 163 but apparently only damaged it and 2 August 1944 when a F-5 reconnaissance aircraft was attacked but no known claims were made by the pilots of the rocket fighters on any of these dates. I honestly wonder how accurate is the information by Späte that Ryll claimed a B-17 in the first week of August 1944. I have found only the following claims for this pilot in Wood which is in agreement with most lists which credit this pilot with eight victories:

14 January 1943: Unteroffizier Hartmut Ryll of 1./JG 77 claims a P-40E
24 March 1943: Unteroffizier Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Hurricane II
7 April 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire at 9:02
2 July 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire at 12:50
5 July 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a B-17 at 11:45
3 August 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a Spitfire V at 17:05 over 48 293 at 3,500 meters
30 August 1943: Feldwebel Hartmut Ryll of 2./JG 77 claims a P-38 at 12:30 over the Ischia area at 10 meters
16 August 1944: Leutnant Hartmut Ryll of 1./JG 400 claims a B-17 HSS at 10:52 north of Brandis at 6,000-7,000 meters

Perhaps Späte simply got the date wrong?

Horrido!

Leo

[DaveM2]

Thanks guys, all a bit confusing-but not unusual for that period of the war I guess! Seems the 16th is the more accurate (or documented) date despite 'possibles' earlier in the month.......

regards
Dave