Pe-2

[cheriz]

There are number of references in literature that Pe-2 Soviet level bomber was in fact a direct copy of German Bf 110 (Me 110).Any comments?
Thank you. Cheriz .

[Graham Boak]

Absolute nonsense. The usual sort of rubbish spouted by those of a political/racist bent to disparage one group or another. Similar comments were made about the Zero being a copy of a US type. There was an argument that the Bf.110 was in turn a copy of the French Potez 63 - does this make the Pe.2 a copy of the Potez? Hardly.

Which is not to deny that every aircraft-building nation relied to some extent on observing what was being done elsewhere, and adopting what might be thought useful.

['chuter]

Also, technology tends to point the way (as in "great minds think alike"). The twin Mustang and 109Z were each top secret projects started at almost the exact same time and the Shinden and Curtiss Ascender (Northrop Bullit, etc) were developed for the same reasons and ran into the same problems (more or less).

[kurlannaiskos]

Originally Posted by cheriz

There are number of references in literature that Pe-2 Soviet level bomber was in fact a direct copy of German Bf 110 (Me 110).Any comments?
Thank you. Cheriz .

you should give serious re-consideration to referring to these as 'sources'.
as usual Graham is quite correct, there is NO connection with the 'Peshka' and the 110.

[HGabor]

Hey guys, why not? Both Me 110 and Pe-2 had two wings, two engines and twin tail!

[Leon]

Well - there is a connection as HGabor wrote
Peshka was based on VI - 100, wich was a prototype of high atlitude two engines heavy fighter having its maiden flight on 22 december 1939.
But.. we may say that two engine heavy fighter idea was quite popular in 1930's.
There are more myths about soviet planes - ie Su-9 being a copy of Me-262.

[kurlannaiskos]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Hey guys, why not? Both Me 110 and Pe-2 had two wings, two engines and twin tail!

the similarities are obvious enough to be ignored.
I thought the point was about stolen designs or technology?

"we may say that two engine heavy fighter idea was quite popular in 1930's"

that is called 'Independant Discovery'

[cheriz]

I was pleased with the overall reaction but it seems to me that at least one of the responders got very emotional. May I remind you that both socialist governments borrowed heavily from each other in many ways . Nazi song which started with ‘My Fuhrer, My Fuhrer, My Fuhrer’ was adopted by Soviets as official Red Force (V V S) anthem starting with
‘And higher and higher and higher. German World War I song ‘I have had a comrade’ was transferred to a Soviet Youth (Young Pioneers) song ‘Young drummer’ obviously the stanzas have been changed but melody remained intact. When it goes to copying military equipment it is undeniable that German medium tank PzK V Panther was greatly influenced by Russian T-34 which by itself was enlarged and modified copy of American T 3 Christie design .By the same token P-51 Mustang would have never been acclaimed as the best fighter of the World War II without Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, and Rolls Royce Merlin engine would have never been crowned as the best engine of its time without American technology of pressurized carburetor. German swept wing technology was adopted by everybody after the end of the war. One of the first Soviet jet fighters MiG-9 was powered by two RD-20 engines which were reproduction of German BMW 003 of World War II. Structure and configuration of famous MiG-15 fighter was greatly influenced by Focke-Wulf Ta 183 and it was powered by Rolls-Royce Nene engine which British labor government foolishly sold to the Soviets in 1946.
Tu-4 Soviets only strategic bomber of late 1940s and early 1950s , capable to reach Continental United States was a direct replica of B -29 absolutely to the last detail .This is undeniably stolen designs and technology. I could give a much longer list of Soviets direct expropriation of western technology but I think at present the above would suffice .
So I would suggest that before delivering :Absolute nonsense. The usual sort of rubbish spouted by those of a political/racist bent to disparage one group or another, to read a little bit more literature , spent more time on the internet and to be less passionate in your expressions . We are all here to learn and to share the information .
Best regards to everybody. Cheriz.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by cheriz

German World War I song ‘I have had a comrade’ was transferred to a Soviet Youth (Young Pioneers) song ‘Young drummer’ obviously the stanzas have been changed but melody remained intact. When it goes to copying military equipment it is undeniable that German medium tank PzK V Panther was greatly influenced by Russian T-34 which by itself was enlarged and modified copy of American T 3 Christie design .

Well Graham has a point that is well illustrated by this paragraph. Half truths which are combined into "factoids" and influence versus copy.

Influence and greatly influenced blurr into the same meaning as copy.

The Panther design was literally influenced in many ways by the Soviet T34, but again it was not a copy - far from it. Influence can involve a complete oposite in design. The T34 was simplicity itself, the Panther was possibly the most complex "medium" tank of WW2.

The T-34 was pretty unique as a weapons system when it first entered the scene, but by highlighting some technical parts it has become "an enlarged and modified copy" of an older American design (in line with the Zero being a copy of American design, or even the Fw 190 being a copy of an American design by Hughes).

The design was so good, it could only be western / american.

Where the Soviets copied technology it is fairly open and either preceded by licence building or captured (superior) enemy technology, but lets leave some room for their own influential design capability.

I have to agree that even to question the origin of the Pe-2 when you can easily see that its similarity to the Bf 110 is very superficial to being not there at all.

The original question carries a level of provocation.

The answer to the Pe 2 being a direct copy can only be: nonsense!

BTW

Here's some info on Ich hatt einen Kameraden:

Uhland-Gedichte
Selected German Verse by Ludwig Uhland In the original German with a
side-by-side translation in English
BACKGROUND: This Uhland poem—also known as "Der gute Kamerad"—was written in 1809 and later set to music by the German composer Friedrich Silcher in 1825 (using an old folk melody, "Ein schwarzbraunes Mädchen hat ein'n Feldjäger lieb"). Uhland's poem (or Lied) was inspired by the Tyrolian freedom fighters and their struggle against Napoleon. It was popular enough during World War I to be parodied as "Ich hatt' mal Marmelade," reflecting the soldiers' hunger and lack of rations. Although it was written much earlier, the poem/song is often quoted/performed in memory of the veterans of the two world wars and for the German veterans day observance known as Volkstrauertag (on the third Sunday in November).

http://german.about.com/library/blkameraden.htm

The French also sing this song as J'avais un Camerade, but this is IIRC due to the high number of ex-Waffen SS men fighting in the Foreign Legion in the period after WW2.

As you can see it is hardly a ww1 song.

This forum is about discussion and raising questions, but it also demans that you put up an effort to find some answers yourself. As such I am tempted to regard the original question in a dubious light.

Provocative, but with with little value.

Perhaps I'm being too cyical, but helas experience proofs otherwise.

[Leon]

As Ruy Horta wrote - the main subject of this topic was if Pe-2 or its roots VI-100 was a copy of Bf-110. And as many people wrote - it wasn't. It was very similar in designing idea but it was not a copy - in technical meaning of this word (as Tu-4 was for example). Panther wasn't a copy of T-34, Su-9 wasn't a copy of Schwalbe...
I think there is no need to arguee about the influence of western technology on Soviet aviation industry. Becouse it's obvious and well known. Most of soviet aviational engines were copies or developed copies (built on license or not) of French, British or German ones...
There is a very interesting book about German technologies in VVS service:
http://www.armybook.com/summary.html?code=0101007i35