He111 max altitude

[Horst Fliegel]

What is the approx altitude of this He111 over London?

[tcolvin]

About 16,000 ft, I would say.
This picture was taken at about 1700 hours on September 7 according to Francis K. Mason.
He adds that this He111 was one of 348 bombers escorted by 617 fighters that flew in formations stepped up from 15,000 to 23,000 ft on that day.
The bombers, he says, rarely flew higher than 18,000 ft.

[Chris Going]

This image was taken by a Luftwaffe airman who, I gather, subsequently emigrated to America and became a teacher in New York. He passed away a few years ago. He used to say (I was told) that if he'd had a Pound for every time this image was reproduced he'd have become rich....


Best

Chris

[Franek Grabowski]

Chris, perhaps you can provide us his name?

[Horst Fliegel]

MikoH wrote this:

"I've heard claims that this famous photo is a fake. Allegedly there are some buildings visible that weren't there in 1940. Does anyone have more info?"

[Chris Going]

Horst

I am happy to tell you that the image is completely genuine in every respect. I have compared this image with other photographs taken 1-2 minutes later, and also compared it with a sortie of September 27th 1940 which covers precisely the same ground. I've also looked at cover of the same area taken courtesy of the Luftwaffe on June 4th 1939.

There aren't any anachronistic buildings. Its fine.

best


Chris

PS Franek -I was thinking to myself the other day that I really should get chapter and verse (ie name) from my informant, who is a retired Imint professional who knew the man, and his wife in the US. He'd also seen his logbook.

C

[wiegand]

Originally Posted by Chris Going

Horst

I am happy to tell you that the image is completely genuine in every respect. I have compared this image with other photographs taken 1-2 minutes later, and also compared it with a sortie of September 27th 1940 which covers precisely the same ground. I've also looked at cover of the same area taken courtesy of the Luftwaffe on June 4th 1939.


C

Hi Chris, what other photos are you talking about.

This would be of personal interest to me.

Cheers,
David

[Chris Going]

Folks

There is clearly some interest in this topic so I'll try to summarise what I know about this stuff. Not very much is in the public domain, alas, but we can do something useful with published data.

First, the June 4th 1939 imagery. June 4th 1939 was a fantastically clear day, and the Germans seized the opportunity to overfly both Paris and London, taking photographs which were then used as Target Graphics for several objectives (see, for example, the essential 'The Blitz then and Now' (TBTN Vol 2, page 24 top left and right, and page 31 bottom right) for an example, this time dated September 24th 1939.

Now, neither of these sorties survived the war -prints of the sortie were destroyed in 1944 in Paris, and the film during the destuction of the Archiv der Fliegerfilm in April 1945. Some of the surviving target graphics, however, were seized by the Allies as part of the OKH Print library capture and thus something of the sortie's 'product' survives. It's in Washington. I can flush out the RG reference if needed. Its in the Dick Tracey capture.

Last year I had to do some research on the September 7th sorties. I found three. One of them crosses Kent on a westwards course. An image
from this sortie (given the German designation GB 1066) was also published in TBT&N 2, p 49 top. The aircraft concerned carried three cameras, the focal lengths of which were 200mm (x1) and 750mm (x2) -the latter two providing imaging in stereo. Bizarrely this aircraft tracked west past Sevenoaks, crossed the bomber stream heading for London just east of Sevenoaks, but then turned south and crossed the coast somewhere close to Beachy head.

Sortie GB 1065 flew westwards up the Thames as the attack unfolded. This also carried the triple-camera set up that GB 1066 had (ie 'S'(or SK), SD Links, and SD Rechts), also 200mm, and 750mm f/l. Prints from the S Camera position (the area collector) survive, as does the Camera 'Links' (I have not found Rechts despite a search). Images from this sortie ('S' frames 69 and 84) have been published in TBT&N on pp's 50-51, and also TBT&N Frontispiece pp's 18-19.

Where was i? Oh yes. The tiny specks of the aircraft converging on London frame published in TBTN p49 (ie on GB 1066's cameras) when looked at on the longer focal length prints are Ju88's, and the 'fighters on a converging course' can be seen to be Me 109's with pale (?yellow) noses.

There is more. Further prints were taken by the slave camera not of a reconnaissance aircraft, but a Dornier heading west up the Thames. Some of these are reproduced in BTBN 2, page 51 and also p 57 showing 2 Do 17z's over Silvertown, East london. Some other photographs taken vby this aircraft recently turned up in a south coast junk shop, where they were bought by an acquaintance of mine, and I have seen them.

Now, at the same time, more photos turned up, this time taken by an aircraft on a NNW course just west of Greenwich, across the Isle of Dogs.
These carry collimation marks indicating these too, are from a slave camera (ie a bomber not a reconnaissance aircraft). Some show falling ordnance. Now the famous Heinkel 111 image (here and BTBN p 56 top) carries the same collimation marks and panel top left. I am happy that the Heinkel image was one of this batch, and I hope my Imint Acquantance will confirm it. Happily the images have information about the date and the name of the Beobachter.

There exists another set of images taken by one of the Bombers. They are undated, but we can prove they are also taken on September 7th, about a minute after the Heinkel He 111 image. How can we tell? Look at the Heinkel image. Pushing rapidly south is a river craft, its wake showing in the rather greasy water. On the east side of the 'U' bend a second craft is creating a wake as it pulls across the river, heading downstream. Now look at the craft on the image reproduced on TbTN Vol 2 p241 top. The little craft west of the U bend is still hammering downstream, still heading south. The second craft has passed the mid point of the river, still crossing it obliquely. On the ground the first bombs are exploding, and an SC250 (ish) is falling in mid picture. Oh yes, the three bomb impacts in the river. The photographs recovered from the junk shop show them seconds before, as fully developed water plumes. And the same river craft are there. Finally look again at the amazing image on pp 18-19. The same two river craft are visible. Their positions suggest that GB 1065 was in position no more than 30-40 seconds before Our Heinkel arrived from the south in the company of another He 111 carrying our pohotographer.

Must opersuade my contact to allow me to post scans of the images here...

best


Chris

PS David if youre interested contact me o/b for refs and more on September 27th sortie etc.

[wiegand]

Chris, excellent work! Thank you for your time on this topic.

Interesting that you have linked the famous shot with what looks to be the sortie you reference. I find it strange that little is has been published of this day as it was clearly and arguably the most important day for change in strategy during the battle which proved to turn the tide in the war in 1940.

Sortie GB 1065 of Fliegerkorps 1 I belive was a Heinkel from one of three KG.1, KG.23 or KG.53 as the majority of aircraft were a mix of Do 17 and Ju88's. It would be nice to see the images your acquantance has from the observer.

[Horst Fliegel]

This from JonG:

"In his book about the He-111 Heinz Nowarra gives 10,000 m/32,810 ft as the max ceiling for the Jumo 213-engined He-111/H-22 variant. But this variant only became operational in 1944.

Most of the Jumo 211/DB601 engined He-111 variants have ceilings in the 6,000-8,000 m/19,690-26,250 ft range according to Nowarra."

What were the pros and cons of the He111 having such a large surface wing area?

Just like the Ju88 had some development potential, the Ju188, could anything worthwhile have been done with the He111 if some of the resources that went into the He177 had gone into it?