German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

The book about the IV. Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 3 by Jochen Prien has the following for Hermann Bock's loss:

Uffz. Hermann Bock of 15./J.G. 3 was killed on a mission, cause unknown, in the area of Pyritz/Stargard, while flying FW 190 A-8/R2 W.Nr 682 940 'Yellow 5 + '

Having said that, I agree entirely with John: much more evidence is needed before you can link this aircraft wreck with the loss of Hermann Bock.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[KrisJG3]

Dear Friends ,

First of all please have a look on the our film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMU7MTnvIvs

here is team from VBGO Germany and some of our team from Poland.

All people which can help us please visit our web side:

http://pomorze1945.com/?co=&lang=EN

and please help us writting on the formal e-mail:

info@pomorze1945.com

Thanks in advance,

Krzysztof

P.s.:
Yes we know that to small pictures but now we are waiting for all needed documents which help us check this place formally.

[Andy Saunders]

It seems to me that the word Bock in pencil on a piece of the aircraft wreckage (presumably ?) is most unlikely to be associated with the name of the pilot. If a piece of personal equipment then possibly, yes.

[KrisJG3]

By the way, here is list of pilots from our area around Stettin:






19/02/45 Ofw. Hans Kleinchen 15./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8 (739152) Unknown reason,area of Pyritz / Stargard
03/03/45 Gefr. Nettelmeier 2./JG 3 Bf 109 G- Reason and place unknown 03/03/45 Lt. Gerhard Büker 8./JG 3 Bf 109 G-10 (490151) Blue 12 + - Unknown reason,area of Freienwalde
03/03/45 Ofhr. Josef Zeiner 13./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R2 (680431) White 9 Jabo raid, unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard
03/03/45 Fw. Werner Schanz 14./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R2 (682921) Black 10 Jabo raid, unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard
05/03/45 Uffz. Schiefenhauer I./JG 3 Bf 109 G-14/AS Reason and place unknown
05/03/45 Gefr. Heinz Abitz 7./JG 3 Bf 109 G-14/AS (787486) Yellow 1 + - During a straffing, area of Naugard
05/03/45 Uffz. Ewald Czepa 12./JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 (330432) Blue 2 + | Combat with P-39S, W. Madüsee (area of Stargard)
09/03/45 Ofhr. Helmut Moll 11./JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 (332546) Yellow 4 + | Combat with LaGG-5, 15 km SE. Stettin
15/03/45 Fw. Werner Martin Stab IV./JG 3 Fw 190 D-9 (211147) Combat, area of Stettin (near Altdamm)
--/03/45 Fw. Josef Kroisenbrunner 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason, area of Stettin
--/03/45 Oblt. Wolfgang Habrich 15./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason,area of Stettin
--/03/45 Obgfr. Josef Kellner 15./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason, area of Stettin
18/04/45 Lt. Baron 11./JG 3 — —
20/04/45 Uffz. Hans Anders 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Combat with fighter
20/04/45 Uffz. Robert Canaris 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Reason and place unknown

Source: http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

As you see list is long and not updated so in this case H. Bock not exist on the above list.
Maybe sombody can add missing pilots.


By the way we had also another pilot with name 'Bock' :

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/0...2-and-8r8.html

"...Uffz. Peter Bock of 8./JG300 in front of his 'schwarze 2' Fw 190 A-8/R2 seen in early 1945. Note the Panzerplatte side armour, the outer wing Mk 108 cannon bulges and the armoured windshield quarter pane. Bock claimed a P-51 on 14 February 1945 over the Chemnitz-Leipzig-Dresden sector ..."

and

"... It should of course be born in mind that the 'R2' was the designation introducing the 'definitive' Sturm variant which entered service with IV.(Sturm)/ JG 3 during April/May 1944 when Sturmstaffel 1 was incorporated into the unit as 11./JG 3. II./JG 300 became a 'Sturmgruppe' some time in July 1944 ( the exact date is not known) while II./JG4 was not established until late July/ early August 1944 ..."

Look here and compare with link above :

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm

"...
Although over 300 Me 163B's were produced (including a few Me 163-Cs with increased fuel), only 9 confirmed air victories were credited to JG 400 by the end of the war, for 14 Komets lost from all causes ( mainly crashes and accidents).
I./JG 400 was disbanded at Brandis in April 1945, while II. Gruppe disbanded at Husum. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_400


see also this:


" ... Secondly, it is clear that Hauptmann Frömert was with the II. Gruppe of JG400. After training at Brandis, he went to Stargard, and then took part in the many relocations of II./JG400, to Bad Zwischenahn, Nordholz and finally Husum. Thirdly, the log identifies four code colors used on Komets: white, yellow, red and green. Red and green codes are quite rare it seems, the only other source listing them is Ransom's book about Brandis. ..."

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm

it is very interesting that pilot Hauptmann Frömert - ... went to Stargard, and then took part in the many relocations of II./JG400
they could fly here together near Stargard and Altdamm with Uffz. Peter Bock of 8./JG300 could be here in Pommeren in 1945 ????? IS it possible ?

Look pos. from 343:
http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots09.htm

also:

Lfd.
Nr. des
Fluges Führer Begleiter Muster Zu-
lassungs-
Nr. Flug Bemerkungen Zweck des Fluges Abflug Landung Flugdauer Ort Tag Tageszeit Ort Tag Tageszeit 341 Hptm Frömert Me110 weiße "8" Platzflug Stargard 23.12 10.45 Stargard 23.12 11:35 50' Tanken geflogen! 2 - " - " " Schleppflug " 25.12 11.35 " 25.12 12.15 40' Me163 = rote "8" 343 - " - Bf 108 "92" Überführung " 2.2.45 14.30 Altdamm 2.2.45 14.50 20' 4 - " - Hptm. Helwig Me110 D5+XZ Überführung Altdamm 4.2. 16.10 Neubrandenburg 4.2. 17.05 55'

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163...e/pilot017.jpg

or look last table here:

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm


why? -- .. Both disbanded at Husum

Please see how much pilots there was with name 'Bock':

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html
but only one or to could be at our area near Stettin/Altdam/Stargard.

so in this case we will back with more pictures of wrack next time.

[KrisJG3]

Dears ,

It seems to me "big step to forward in our puzzles (but needed Your help)" | we need to know more detail about pilot:
MIA on: 03/03/45 Gefr. Nettelmeier from 2./JG 3 Bf 109 G- Reason and place unknown ?????

The same day , (have a look info. about pilot Brandt from 2./JG3):

"...On 22 January 1945,2./JG 3 was relocated to Stettin-Altdamm for operations over the Eastern front. The primary mission of the unit was low-level attacks in support of the German army in the Bromberg/Posen area. Additionally, escort missions for Fw 190 ground-attack and Ju 87 anti-tank aircraft were flown. On 10 February, the unit relocated to Pinnow near Kolberg in Pomerania. On 3 March 1945, Brandt destroyed 3 Russian tanks with bombs, strafed and set on fire 20 trucks and shot down two Russian Pe-2 twin-engine bombers and a LaGG-3 fighter. However, he was again shot down and wounded in aerial combat with a Russian Il-2 Sturmovik ground attack aircraft. He successfully managed a belly landing in his damaged Bf 109 G-14 (W.Nr. 464 278) near Augustwalde. Following the dissolution of I./JG 3 on 23 March 1945, Brandt was appointed Staffelkapitän of 7./JG 3. He held the post until the end of the war. Brandt died of complications from the wounds he received during the war on 28 January 1977 at Bottrop.... "

See both sources:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/brandt.html

http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html


Have somebody of you Flugbuch (or info.) for both pilots from 2./JG3 and can compare/check if they were on the same mission on 3 March 1945 around area of Stettin on the same aircrafts Bf109G ? You can contact with me on prive box too. (we need your support if you have sources, info. , ect...).
For collegues from U.S.A. can you check it at US archives ? It seems that some documents of JG3 could be there ?
I"m sure that chronicle book of JG3 exist but where is available ?

Best regards,
Kris

[KrisJG3]

Dears,

Please help at identyfication typ of Bf 109 "?" for following plate - probably from VDM reductor used in engine DB 605:

Here info from plate:
Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7
Änderungen : 11
Werk Nr.: 11029
Herstelle: 0 m

From following post (source): http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?t=75860&page=4

we can read :

".... VDM для DB 605 А-С это 9-13005 С или 9-13005 С-4
= typical serial numbers for reductor VDM for engines DB 605 A-C was: 9-13005 C or 9-13005 C-4 ...."

but what about number: 9-13005 C-7 ??????Is it typical reductor number used for Bf-109 "G" or "K" ?????

More about DB 605:
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm

Here is also some info:DB605A -> Bf109G-6.
DB605AM -> Bf109G-6(MW50) и Bf109G-14.
DB605AS -> Bf109G-6/AS.
DB605ASM -> Bf109G-14/AS.
DB605DB i DC -> Bf109G-10.
DB605ASB i ASC -> Bf109G-14/AS.

This is first important detail from crashed German aircraft - we think in period Feb./March 1945.

If somebody have this book :
http://reibert.info/forum/attachment...4&d=1323152784
can I ask you to check ?


Best regards,

Kris

[Brian Bines]

Kris,

Is the following loss known to your team 19-2-45 area of Stargard Bf 109 K-4 yellow 1 332503 of 11/JG 3 in combat with Airacobra Fw. Heinz Bastian missing changed to killed,

Regards

Brian Bines

[KrisJG3]

Brian - I must consult with collegues from team.
But Small update to information from reductor plate:

Have to be correct:

Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7
Änderungen : 11
Werk Nr.: 11029
Herstelle: bm

where "bm"- mean:
bm - AEG-Allgemeine Elektrizitaets-Gesellschaft, Abeteilung Zaehlerfabrik, Berlin

My question is:
For which type of Bf 109 "?" was used this type of reductor (Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7) to main engine DB 605 "?"
We have to know correct type of Bf109 for contact with WaSt Berlin. For sure on the place was KIA German pilot.

(New info. soon - I need a lot of time to clean details from wrack).

Have you access to following books and could you check this information ?

• Mermet, Jean-Claude. Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-1 through K-4. Engines and Fittings. Marnaz, France: Jean Claude Mermet SA, 1999.
• Messerschmitt AG. Messerschmitt Bf 109G; technisch Kompendium, Handbücher, Ersatztelliste, Bewaffnung Bedienungsvorschrift/Fl, Bordfunkanlage, Lehrbildreihe; 1942/1944. [Elektronische Resource] (Reprint) Ludwigsburg, Germany: Luftfahrt-Archiv, 2006. ISBN 3-939847-13-5 .
• Messerschmitt AG. Messerschmitt Bf 109K; technisch Kompendium, Handbüch, Ersatztelliste, Rep.-Answeisung, Bewaffnung Bedienungsvorschrift; 1943–1944. [Elektronische Resource] (Reprint). Ludwigsburg, Germany: Luftfahrt-Archiv, 2006. ISBN 3-939847-14-3.

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Hello Kris,

I've found the spare parts list from your part. It's a Einbau-Verstellgetriebe. Unfortunately the C-7 version is not mentioned, but the spare parts list is from the year 1943, so I guess the C-7 was a later evolution of these gearboxes.

[KrisJG3]

So Dear friends please inform me when C-7 (Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7) was a later evolution of these gearboxes ?

With whiche type of main engines (Daimler-Benz DB 605) was conected gearbox C-7 ?

Some details about main engines :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_605

Still waiting for next suggestion and answers.
(Big thanks for earlier answers).

I will try in the nearest time add some photos from wrack details ---- As I promissed:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...CPmqiZXCsta_BA
but next will be soon - but I belive that collegues from FORUM help use agree full type name of Bf 109 "?" ( it seems to be G or K - but more).
Of course I will inform about "caliber of ammunition" - it can a little bit help.-----> Ammo caliber: 13 mm and 20 mm

In the moment of hit in the ground Bf109 exploded and bursted into flames.


Best regards,

Kris