Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943

[yogybär]

From a technical point of view, on the first look, the P-40 stands no chance against a Bf109G. But when one look into the BD605 problematic and then rethinks that some of the 109's might have carried the gunpod-Rüstsatz, then the performance of such a 1,3ata-3xMG151/20-109G-6 is only a bit better then that of a P-40F.

Interesting is the following statement:

"poorly executed tactics" and "lack of coordination"

It implements that already by mid-1943, US-pilots were much better then their German counterparts.

Can anyone state who were Gruppenkommandeur and Staffelkapitäne and other aces of III./JG77 on that day?

[Oberst]

That is a very good question. I can't find any information on III./JG 77 during that time period.

[keith A]

Hi,

It certainly strains credibility that Warhawks could claim such large scores against the Bf109G. Evidence prior and post the period of the Summer of 1943 indicate that the Warhawk was a good ground attack fighter but a less than average air fighter except against adversaries such as the Ju52, SM82 or Me323. Experienced commonwealth P40 pilots were scaling down thir claims because of the technological/training/experience of their Axis fighter opponents

I believe that the over inflated scores of Warhawk pilots was largely due to the confusion and inexperience of the group in air combat. Veterans like the 33rd and 57th seem to be more accurate about their results, By 1944 the 325th was making more accurate predictions.


cheer-o

Keith

[Juha]

The Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 77 at that time was Kurt Ubben, had been almost 2 years, but I have no info did he fly that day or not.

Juha

[Oberst]

Hello Juha,
Where did you get your information from? Thanks.

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Below are some pilots with III./J.G. 77 in June/July 1943. Victory tallies are approximate, and I'm not sure how many of them were involved in this particular combat.

Stab III./J.G. 77
Fw. Hans-Werner Renzow - 4 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)
Major Kurt Ubben - 109 victories

7./J.G. 77
Oblt. Eberhard Niese - 14 victories
Ofw. Johann Pichler - 35 victories

8./J.G. 77
Hptm. Emil Omert - 62 victories
Ofw. Heinrich Hackler - 50 victories
Ofw. Eduard Isken - 34 victories

9./J.G. 77
Lt. Heribert Bertram - 0 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)
Oblt. Wolfgang Ernst - 28 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)

There are indications in interrogation reports that Gruppe morale was quite low in the summer of 1943, but as the above reveals, there were still some experienced and successful pilots in the unit.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Oberst

Hello Juha,
Where did you get your information from? Thanks.

From several sources on JG 77 and on Kurt Ubben. To mention two Holm's site http://www.ww2.dk/ and Kacha's site http://www.luftwaffe.cz/ .

Juha

[Oberst]

Now I see the picture:

30.July.1943 32 P-40s of 317th & 319th FS was on routine sweep over southern Sardinia. They were jumped by as they say 30 Me 109's & another force of C.202's. The P-40 claimed 21 Me 109's, but III./JG 77 records show five losses for that day. Overclaiming for sure. But with that many aircraft twisting and turning, its to be expected

[keith A]

Yep. To shoot down 4-5 Bf109s is a decent result. They got more accurate as the war progressed, especially against multi-engined opponents... although shared claims again are absent, and like many of the more famous fighter groups they seem to get involved in a race for "kills" which still is misleading. If the losses were true one wonders how Air Intelligence was able to reconcile German war production with LW fighters being shot out of the sky in amounts that would produce serious problems for LW morale!

I wonder if later claims of post-war encounters with LW pilots who admit catastrophic losses are an indication that there were questions as to the validity of claims at the time?

regards

Keith

[Juha]

Hello Andrew!
thanks for the info on the aces of III./JG 77.
I should have remembered Omert and Pichler.

Juha