Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Balka Talovaya
Балка Таловая
Ravina
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

We can see that this place is some 5 km to the East of Kotelnikovo, some Km WSW of now Volgograd (Stalingrad).

We know from reports that the weather was not good. If we do follow up the route from Zaporoshye we can see a certain logic to "follow up" the river up to Mariupol, Rostov and then keep following the Don river upstream (VOR = visual over the River). They may have not found the correct place to drop the supplies and may have decided to return by the same route (visual over the river). I can see no historical problems at all on what has been described by the Russian authors so far....

Not sure I follow you here Adriano
I already asked if Talovaya Balka is the same place as Balka Tolovaya. IF it is, then the statement from the authors
it is in the Svitlovodsky district of the Kirovograd area, now in Ukraine can't be correct. This Balka Tolovaya is
nowhere near Ukraine unless Ukraine's borders were entirely different in 1943 and we would also need to
locate a Kirovograd somewhere in the vicinity, which I can't!
Also when it comes to navigation, we are not talking about some newbie here. We are dealing with the CO
of a newly formed He 177 bomber unit. Surely that crew would be very experienced even if they were new to the Eastern Front.
Finally it would also mean that the Germans themselves had no idea where Schede went down and made up a
report based entirely on guesswork.
Things just still don't add up to my satisfaction....
Cheers
Stig

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Chris thanks for the NVM which confirm Poljakowka as the place of death, circa 16:00hs.

The problem is that we do have two versions for the death of Major Schede:
1) That he landed at Gumrak and was killed by a Russian bomb whilst on a truck, on the SSE of Gumrak. (If so his plane would have not being listed as 100% destroyed and missing in action);
2) That he was shot down by AA fire and crashed at Balka Tovalaya (ravina), near Kotelnikovo.

It seems that the Bordfunker radioded something about them being hit by Flak...Did the Russians intercepted the radio communication? From where the Russian authors got that information is still a mistery too....

POLJAKOWKA do exist...I found the name on the records of an Infantry Division here:

I./Pol 6 marschiert von Russkaja nach Ssewerny und wird mit Eintreffen dort S.D. 454 unterstellt.
1.4. II./Pol 6 marschiert von Troizkoje nach Ssewerny und wird mit Eintreffen dort der S.D. 454 unterstellt.
1./2.4. I./Pol 6 übernimmt Stellung des III./G.R. 375
2./3.4. II./Pol 6 übernimmt Stellung des II./G.R. 375
(T314 R718 XXIV. Pz.K. 000 536)
Laut Notizen über die Besichtigung der Küsten-Stellungen an der Mius-Halbinsel, Abschnitt Major Menke, durch den Komm. General, Major Herenburg, Lt. Franke vom 28.3.1943
...
08.40 Uhr Besichtigung des Landsitzes bei Poljakowka ...

Hier auch Sitz eines SS-Kommandos in Stärke von angeblich 1 : 10 zuzüglich 3 Mann SS-Miliz

Kommando-Führer Obersturmführer Brede (Abt. Rasse und Siedlung). Untersteht dem Höh. SS- u. Polizeiführer Russland-Süd in Kiew (ehem. Rostow), SS-Obergruppenführer Prützmann, Feldpostnummer 34546

Kommando beaufsichtigt angeblich Bewirtschaftung von Kolchosen und Sowjosen u.a. auch im Raum Matwejewkurgan

!!! Ausstellung zum Polizeibataillon 311 Jena !!! - Forum der Wehrmacht

!!! Ausstellung zum Polizeibataillon 311 Jena !!! - Forum der Wehrmacht
Hallo Forumsmitglieder Hier ein kleiner Einblick zur am 12. Februar gestarteten Ausstellung des Pol.Btl. 311 Je...

BUT WHERE is this damned place in this so vast Russian Land ???? and in a Country where the names of towns changed after WW2!!!!!!!

CAN a Russian Member of this Board or Ukrainian member of this Board give us a hand, to identify the correct place of this town in WW2?

Does Russian members of this board knows for instance from where both Dmitrys got their information that Schede's machine and Memorablia was found? Are there photos of the items found on the crash place?

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Stig,
The problem is that when you use Google maps and digit Talovaya Balka, there are at least 4 similar named places....and no one near the other.

One of the 4 is that one near Kirovograd, where the authors said the machine crashed, as informed on the previous message of mine. Of course, if you choose one of the other 3 named places Talovaya Balka, they will not fit here...one such named place is far beyound Moscow and much further South.

A.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Stig,
The problem is that when you use Google maps and digit Talovaya Balka, there are at least 4 similar named places....and no one near the other.

One of the 4 is that one near Kirovograd, where the authors said the machine crashed, as informed on the previous message of mine. Of course, if you choose one of the other 3 named places Talovaya Balka, they will not fit here...one such named place is far beyound Moscow and much further South.

A.

Odd Adriano
When I enter Talovaya Balka I get two results, both of them spelled Balka Talovaya and none of them in Ukraine...
I also get one result for Talovaya (no Balka) and one for Balka (no Talovaya), none of them in Ukraine either.
Entering Kirovograd instead I get a place on map spelled Kropyvnytskyi (present name I guess?)
If that is the same place I can't see how Schede could have come down there since that would mean a terrible
navigation error.
This is becoming very confusing.....
Cheers
Stig

[ju55dk]

Death card clearly states Feindflug, and also Vermisst. Later changed to Gefallen.
Junker

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Junker
Agree with you about the NVM. From where the information about him being killed by a bomb on a truck comes from, I do not know....but I have read something about (maybe on De Zeng's LW Files).

STIG
Balka Tovalaya #1 (North of Kurilovka)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...t6py?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya#2 (North of Volgograd or Stalingrad - East of Shirokov)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...v2kj?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #3 (NE of Glubokii - East of Luhanski)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...sb3b?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #4 (some 5km East of Kotelnikovo - seems to be THIS ONE)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

Adriano

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

STIG
Balka Tovalaya #1 (North of Kurilovka)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...t6py?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya#2 (North of Volgograd or Stalingrad - East of Shirokov)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...v2kj?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #3 (NE of Glubokii - East of Luhanski)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...sb3b?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #4 (some 5km East of Kotelnikovo - seems to be THIS ONE)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

Adriano

Yes I located two of the ones which comes up with your search.
Interesting that a search on google maps turns out different responses depending on where you are...
Whatever the case, none of them are in Ukraine and if the data given by Matti are correct, there is no way
Schede and crew would have been taken from any of those located places and transported into the Stalingrad pocket.
I think we can now safely conclude that whatever was found in 2016 at a place called Talovaya Balka was not that
of Schede and his crew.
Stig

[Chris Goss]

To bring this to a close, I have been sent this by another source which was originally supplied by a Flak officer at the time:

"On January 16, around 1200hrs, an Air Force major arrived in a pilot's blue station wagon to the makeshift infirmary in Yeshovka, 7 km south of Gumrak. He asked me where he could take two wounded crew members for medical care. The major also made the following statements: He was the Gr Kdr of an He 177 unit and had only been in Zaporozhye for a few days. He was attacked by six fighters and forced to belly land after the supply bombs were dropped. Two of his crew were wounded, one slightly and the other seriously. His crew behaved in an exemplary manner. He had to destroy his plane. He also asked about a connection to the VIII Air Corps and wanted to go to Gumrak Air Base himself. Then he left".

"Another witness reports that the machine was pursued by Russian fighters at an altitude of around 100-400m and that it was constantly turning.
Dr. Trurnit reported: “…The crew drove a vehicle to Gumrak Air Base. It stopped 3 km northeast in the Talovoy Gorge near one of our vehicles that had broken down there. During this stay, a direct bomb killed Maj. Schede and his crew. This happened around 1600hrs in complete darkness.”

Therefore the Ukranian crash is not Schede's and in any case how could his EKM etc be in an aircraft which was destroyed by him after crash-landing?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Chris!!
Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

I have written from the NVM at WASt the following:

1943-01-16, 1./KG 50, He 177 A-1, 15233, E8+FH, Bei Gumrak
Flugzeugführer Major Schede, Kurt
Kampfbeobachter Uffz Knehr, Maximilian
Bordfunker Ofw Hentschel, Hans
Bordmechaniker Fw Langenberg, Fritz
Bordschütze Obgfr Gajewski, Josef
Bordschütze Uffz Müller, Anton
Notlandung infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. Besatzung verstorben am Boden beim LKW-Transport durch Volltreffer einer schweren Bombe.

Matti