F-86 vs MiG 15, the claims...

[Jim Oxley]

Excellent, informative post JoeB. I sure hope that you are planning on putting that all into a book in the newar future.

I am surprised though at the various MiG losses reported by each country. I would have thought that China would have suffered the most, given they provided the bulk of MiG pilots. Yet the Soviets lost the most according to your research. That is interesting.

Keep up the great work.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Thanks for 411, Joe. Maybe this controversy is closer to being cleared up. I have read about the USAF study Sabre Measures Charlie but did not view a copy of the original document.

Did you figure out how many cases are still remaining in which the cause of loss is unknown?

[Leo Etgen]

Hello guys

Have any of you come across www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html before? This seems to be a nice web site with considerable information on the American aces of the Korean War. There is a link included concerning the Russian aces as well www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html I hope that some of you find this information interesting.

Horrido!

Leo

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hello guys

There is a link included concerning the Russian aces as well www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html I hope that some of you find this information interesting.

Interesting info qualitatively, but I'd be careful with the claim and loss accounting given on that site. For example, see the score of N. Sutyagin on that page, Soviet pilot credited with the most victories in Korea. The comparison of his credited victories v US sources purports to show 12 of 21 claims verified. I got quite a different answer using Soviet sources with exact types, times and places of his claims (beside date) v original US records. See this link for my findings v that site's day by day. I got a score of around 1.5 if his claims are weighted equally with other Soviet and Chinese claimants in the same combats. His maximum possible score would be 5, minimum possible score 0. Five US a/c of the general type he claimed (all F-86's as it happened) were shot down, one each on 5 different days when he was credited with victories. But, there were other Soviet claims at similar times and places each on those days, and known Chinese claims too on one of those days. See link:
http://www.acepilots.com/smf/index.php?topic=79

Re: Six Nifty .50's: there are still a number of F-86 losses whose cause I can't certainly determine, which is why I gave a range of 85-90. And it would depend on what burden of proof one used. For example if one said an F-86 loss in the same time window same day as a MiG claim was due to MiG unless it could be absolutely proved it wasn't, the number might be even higher than 90 (though not more than around 100 in any case). If one said it had to be proven it was a MiG loss, or if one rejected my inclusion of MiG damaged F-86's which returned safely but were never repaired as "MiG losses", the number might shrink below 85, though in no case less than around 80. I also still hope to get more US data on some incidents. And it's possible that detailed claim information from the Chinese and NK's might clarify a few situations, their claims aren't known in the same day to day detail as Soviet ones. But I doubt the end point will be complete certainty about all cases.

Joe

[drgondog]

Joe - I agree your approach and the directed result. On a smaller scale I have looked over ever 47 and 51 loss for the 355FG wrt fighter losses to GAF.

My numbers range from 28 (absolutely seen w/German fighter on tail if 'missing' and or seen to be be shot down) to 45 (all the prior plus 1.) shot up, returned and crashed, 2.) missing in area which had German fighters in area, c.) escaped/damaged but crashed when ran out of fuel) and careful to note the distinctions for each separate Pilot entry.

The most interesting research for me lately is developing the battle tracks, engagement locations and claims/macrs, and having a dialogue with the many very knowledgeable guys (Ruy, Erich, Leo, Richard, etc) on this forum to match LW units and pilots with the 355th FG encounters- which is kinda what you are doing on a larger scale.

It is particularly interesting when there is not a LW claim for a 355 loss and vice versa. These questions are the other side of Overclaims coin.

IMHO, every unit historian on either side should do as much as possible along these lines for posterity.

Regards, and Respect

Bill Marshall

[Gizmo]

Daniel,
As I know at last months of the war KPAFAC had three MIGs regiments, two of them over PLAAF command. In my opinion there is possible that most victims of 30 June clashes were from regiment that is simply not counted in PLAAF statistics. KPAFAC were poorly trained, so very heavy losses in one combat are highly possible. BTW Seidov claimed that on 30 June VVS suffered only one lose - a MiG from 224 IAP, pilot bailed out.

Here are PLAAF MIGs losses at last months of the war (according to Seidov book)
November 52 - 7 destroyed and 4 damaged, 2 pilots KIA
December 52 - 6 destroyed, 12 damaged (according to "Red Wings over Yalu" by Xiaoming Zhang 12 destroyed)
January 53 - 12 MiGs destroyed 4 pilots KIA, 1 Tu-2 destroyed
February 53 - 7 destroyed, 10 damaged, 5 KIA
March 53 - 13 destroyed, 11 damaged
April 53 - 15 destroyed, 3 pilots KIA
May 53 - 27 destroyed, 10 pilots KIA
June 53 - 11 destroyed, 7 pilots KIA
July 53 - 17 destroyed, 9 pilots KIA

[Daniel Nole]

Thank Gizmo and already coincide about the time of start of operations of the fresh trained MiG-15 pilots of the KPAFAC.

Checking yesterday the Jun 10, 1953 I have finded one claim by Fedorets for one F-86s , the kill is also related in the book of Osprey "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War".
After the soviet version , Fedorets firing from some 200 m hit the Sabre in the left wing , center section and this one broke up. His MiG was damaged by debris and landed taking with him a part of the left wing slat of the Sabre.The regimental commander told to the technicians "Maj Fedorets has saved us from having to search for the wreckage of the aircraft he shot shot down.He's brought back the evidence himself".

Well the point , aparently only one F-86s shot down this day and was by AAA. The F-86F-30 52-4339 of Capt Robert Coury of the 18th FBG, 12th FS was part of the D Flight lead by Major Howard Ebersole in a fighter-bomber mission againts Chinese supply dumps.
Maj Ebersole had see the plume of fire coming of the tailpipe of Coury F-86 after the AAA hit and had also checked his ejection after clearing "Old Papa San" mountain. The Sabre exploded as soon as he ejected and Coury was taked POW. Any mention of MiGs in the report.
Fedorets speak also about "Air Cover for the Suphun power station" and eight F-86 attacked and engaged. Other source speak about other two F-86 shot down this day but in any case and after the testimonies of that, Coury cannot be the victim of Fedorets or other MiG this day.

Regards

Daniel

[Daniel Nole]

A very good and complet document. Was write in 1952 by Squadron Leader Harbison. Information about MiGs are limited, but is normal, was write in 1952.

http://scilib.narod.ru/Avia/Sabre_vs_MiG/sabres.htm

Daniel

[Daniel Nole]

Something of the other side. A Chinese film with PLAAF MiGs about the time of the Korean War. Of Course, is only a film like many others of Hollywood like the films of Alan Ladd, Robert Mitchum or William Holden, etc. Nice to see something of the other side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Rm2zFcX_c

[steve51]

Daniel Nole,
Thanks for posting that Chinese clip. It seems war movies all over the world are the same. Some nice clips of Migs.