Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I think Swedish AF aircrafts did not have insignia on wing upper surfaces 1944. Approaching from rear and high there would be no insignias visible.

Cheers,
Kari

[Stig Jarlevik]

Kari

Partly correct.
No over wing insignias were carried until appx summer 1944 when they were applied also to the upper surface.
Reason was no doubt the losses suffered previously in May.

Cheers
Stig

[Juha]

Hello Stig
what was the logic behind that practice? Many Soviet twin-engine aircraft also lacked the over wing national insignia, so the practice made Swedish planes more similar to Soviet ones. One would think that Swedes would have tried to be discerned from the combatants when they flied over areas used by both combatants, not to look like one of the combatants.

Juha

[Stig Jarlevik]

Good question Juha

At this point I don't know! I never really been a camouflage and marking enthusiast, so I have not delved any deeper into why a certain stand was adopted.

From what I have gathered the camouflage originated in Italy and most likely was the one the French had wanted and was not changed upon arrival to Sweden. If the paint needed to be changed or the aircraft were repainted Swedish substitute colours were used.

Your reference to being more look-a-like to Soviet aircraft at the time was probably something the SwAF was not aware of.

Since these Swedish long-range reconnaissance flights very often brought the aircraft perilously very close to areas where enemy aircraft was a reality perhaps low visibility was more paramount than showing the three crowns?

But with hindsight I agree, it was both dangerous and perhaps even foolish.
Then on the other hand, we don't know what the end result would have been even if over wing markings had been used....

Cheers
Stig

[Juha]

Hello Stig
thanks for answering. I’m not marking specialist either and of course we don’t know if clearer national markings would have made any difference. But e.g. Dutch even gave up their cockade in October 1939 and began use the large black lined orange triangle instead.

Juha

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Juha

Holland probably felt themselves extremely threatened after the outbreak of WW 2 and probably did not want to give the Germans a single chance to claim they thought the Dutch were Allied aircraft due to the circular form of the old marking.

Sweden probably felt safer in 1939, after all we would have been very much a 'side show'. All that changed pretty fast of course in April 1940, but that was another story...

Cheers
Stig

[Mikael Olrog]

Thanks for sharing do documents Hans, interesting findings.

[Juha]

Hello Hans
Thanks for the extra interesting info!

Juha

[bearoutwest]

Just a couple of thoughts on target visibility:

1. When the target aircraft is in 20mm cannon range (approx. 400-600m), a Spitfire size target is about the size of a fingernail (approx. 1 cm). A Tupolev SB, Douglas Boston, Caproni 313 size aircraft, would probably be no bigger than 2cm in view. By the time you get close enough to see markings and make out colours and crowns, etc, you would (I estimate) need to be within 100-150m range. At a closing speed of 100km/hr, you would cover that 300-400m in something like 10 seconds. You may well need to decide whether to fire or not after about 3-4 seconds otherwise you may be too close. I suggest that by the time you have come into range and decided to fire, and 6 seconds later are close enough to see the colours and details of the markings.... you have had enough time to shoot down the aircraft and now realize your error - too late.

2. The level of published details on aircraft recognition (and perhaps the care in which most pilots would have bothered to pay more than cursory attention) was surprisingly low. We enthusiast - with the greater level of knowledge and care - can probably tell the difference in details between similar aircraft far better than the best aces of WW2. But then, we don't need to make life-and-death decisions in the moments of anxious excitement. (Luckily.)

3. Light and shadow, and different angles of approach can make a Spitfire, look like a radial engine aircraft. I noticed this on numerous aviation videos, and in real life with a P-51 and A-1 in loose formation. (At times in the distance, when there was insufficient plan view detail, it was surprisingly difficult to quickly tell which was which - i.e. if you had looked away for a few seconds and then look back up to reacquire sight of the pair of aircraft.)

So not really surprising the level of errors in aircraft shoot downs.

Just my thoughts,
...geoff

[Juha]

Hello Geoff
are you sure?
Why bother with national markings if they were useless?
I had no troubles to tell the off-white "face" from otherwise dark brown man-side target from 300 m at the firing-range decades ago. SwAF Caprionis had fairly large national markings below wings appr. 1.5 m diameter. They were almost as big as one could paint on the wing. The fuselage roundels were also almost as big as possible but because of the slim fuselage of Caproni smaller, appr. 1 m across but even that should have been enough IIRC the results of the Finnish marking tests around 1940.

Agree with your points 2. and 3.

Juha