Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

In my opinion Hartmann worked his "over-claiming" initially with 7./JG52 with Werner Puls before being joining 9./JG52.

If our Russian losses experts are correct(and we have nothing to dispute this) then 9./JG52 claims are less reliable, one could say "over-claiming" had been going on there throughout 1942.

In my opinion Hermann Graf worked his "over-claiming" initially with Leopold Steinbatz, Heinrich Füllgrabe, Friedrich Brückmann ans Ernst Süß. Then there was a change in August/September 1942 to Johann Kalb and Hermann Wolf.

When Hartmann joins 9./JG52 in my opinion he continued his "over-claiming" from Autumn 1943 until January 1944 with Herbert Bachnick and our old friend Hermann Wolf, after this time there is no obvious alliances, Hans-Joachim Birkner is alleged to have been his longtime wingman, but there is not much evidence of this........yet still the "over-claiming" went on.

How did Hartmann know that he could rely on wolf, some kind of masonic handshake?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Perhaps we will never have a full and correct explanation to some pilots' overclaiming habit. What I know for sure, is that the very same soviet combat records support some pilots claims with crazy accuracy, but disproof others in a shocking scale. This tells me that the soviet records (back then and there, while the war was still going on) were authentic and fine, the problem is with some pilots' claims. Honestly, now, as I go through all records again for eg. Lipfert in deep analysis, I just laugh when I see the minor differences between his claims and the soviet verified losses. Very often only 0, 2, or 5 minutes difference in claim times; Lipfert was crazy sharp! Calculating the 2 hrs Moscow and local time difference, the remaining time is very often only 0 - 2 - 5 minutes! Certainly we can take into consideration what was written down. If Hartmann's records were wrong, even if he really shot down a plane, we cannot verify his claim. I think that between 90-100% and only 25-30% accuracies there are BIG differences!

Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello

Yes, the Russian documents tell the truth.
However, one thing is certain, on the evening of June 4 the 5 VA had 8 P-39 few.
Even the No.20 after the aerial battle in which the No.36 was lost, had to go to the workshop. She only made training flights until June 7th, until she flew on June 8th.
Maybe Hartmann met her after all.
Secondly; for the Russians a loss occurred only when the aircraft, the pilot, was lost. Damage like the Germans 60% could be repaired. And losses that were too great were not seen well in the upper staff and also in the political offices.

BenFolk

[Johannes]

Hi Gabor

Think we are in agreement. I see patterns in pilots claiming, and basically it's the same type of pattern for the "over-claimers", also even when they are not "over-claiming" I can usually see it's because they are with an unfamiliar wingman. Also of note is that in the East a Staffel hardly ever flew as a whole, it was usually a rotte or schwarm, this would explain how only certain pilots within a staffel might be "over-claiming".

Saddest thing is that I suspect the "over-claimers" caused hyper-inflation with regards to decorations. Considering the differences between the amount of "kills" a pilot needed to get a Ritterkreuz at any particular time, I wonder if Gruppenkommandeur sometimes didn't recommend a certain person for reward, because he suspected something.

There was an adjutant under Barkhorn's command that found a loophole i.e he was claiming the "kills" awarded to the unit as a whole....not to any one person, apparently Barkhorn was horrified and put a stop to it, but sadly I don't know if any punishment was handed out.

All the best

Johannes

[BenFolk]

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20.

unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.
For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk

[BenFolk]

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20. Unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.

For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk,

Interesting insights. However there are multiple problems with May 8, 1945, which lead to the same conclusion.

1.: Olomouc-N is approx. 90km NE of downtown Brno, therefore not only is it in the wrong place, but it is also further away from Hartmann's airfield.

2.: Brno is approx. 80km away from where Hartmann took off from, while Olomouc is approx. 120 km away. His mission was to see how far the Soviets were from Deutsche Brod (the area which was at the front of the Soviet advance towards his airfield). By flying towards Olomouc, Hartmann would not have known how far the Soviet push towards his airfield was, rather he would have known how far the Soviet push was towards the North, something which would have been of no use to him.

3.: A Yak-3 colliding with an IL-2 by chance is unlikely if the Yak was falling from the heavens. If the Yak fell onto the IL-2 it would have been closer to the IL-2. The IL-2s were ground attack aircrafts which flew close to the ground (approx. 1000m altitude), therefore the altitude Hartmann stated is incorrect among many other details. If the Yak was escorting the IL-2s, there would have been multiple planes (say 8 IL-2s), therefore there would have been witnesses to report an encounter with the enemy. The only reported enemy aerial activity in the area was a lonely Ju 88 at high altitude.

4. Olomouc is even deeper into Soviet territory, therefore there would not have been 12 Mustangs in the air that Hartmann saw after his Yak-9 claim.

Consideration of these details again leads to the very same conclusion: Hartman's No.352 was just another overclaim.

Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello

I am sorry
Olomouc was in the operational area of the 60th Soviet Army.
The air defense of this army reported the passage of 14 enemy aircraft that day. 4 The FW190s were in action at 10.18 a.m. (Russian time) in the Mährisch Neustadt area.
Even 8 VA report that 3 Me 110 Russian troops stormed in the Prostejov area, towards Brno, and 7 enemy aircraft were discovered behind the front line.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any exact dates on the Soviet side.

BenFolk

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk,
Hartmann took off from Havlíčkův Brod (Německý Brod / Deutsch Brod) on May 8, 1945 in order to check the Soviet push towards their airfield. He was ordered to fly this mission by his superior, so it was not just a free hunt mission eg. to Olomouc.

Brno was much closer to his airfield than Olomouc (and for almost two weeks it was already in Soviet hands, therefore they knew the Russians were that close!) and he followed the main road to there. There is no main road connecting D.B. to Olomouc directly, only the one passing through Brno, where, by the way, he claimed that Yak-9 at approx. 9:00 LT. This means that his ‘lost’ mysterious Yak-9 had to go down in the Soviet records around 11:00 Moscow Time. There was no such loss!

The 8 VA IL-2s and Yak-3s near Olomouc flew their mission between 08:00-08:50 local time. They collided soon after they left the target ~ around 8:30 LT. This means that the Yak-3 and the IL-2 (More precisely 565 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 9816, Ml.lt. Shishnev bailed out and 112 GvIAP Yak-3, S/N: 0829227, Gv.Lt. Kuzin, KIA) were already burning on the ground for about half an hour, when Hartmann claimed 'his Yak-9' over Brno much closer to his airfield around 09:00 local time. (The Ju 88 mentioned previously was spotted and reported by the regional PVO claiming 4 dropped bombs, which caused no damages.)

Considering all of this, everything that happened in the Olomouc area (The Soviet 60th Army, the Soviet 8th Air Army, the observed German planes, etc.) is completely irrelevant and independent regarding Hartmann’s 352nd.

Cheers,
Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello

- As I read, Hartmann flew during 8.30 - 9.20 hours It was only 80 kilometers to Brünn, so it would be around 160 kilometers back and forth. Very slow with a Me 109 and for a long time.

- Then I wrote "possible". As in the Russian Report (Фонд 346, Опись 0005755, Дело 0229) reads "fog and smoke" there was a collision which means poor visibility.

This topic is finished for me.



Thanks
BenFolk