Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Von Alles

thank you all for sharing these valuable informations.
But about T6+AD Ju 87 : who was the true pilot ?
Best regards

Von Alles

BRÜCKER, Hptm. Heinrich flew an R-2 so marked on several ocassions.

[Jim P.]

Stuka drivers are George's thing - hopefully he'll come back and answer.

Jesters - you think things are sketchy now? How about 15-20 years ago?

What kind of information are you referring to? I'm presuming markings and camouflage. The biggest problem with keeping up with the latest and greatset in this area is the cost. These leading edge books are expensive, but its like anything else, you get what you pay for. Titles are too numerous to mention, but anything from Prien, Rodeike, Stemmer, Mombeek, Caldwell, Crandall, Urbanke to name but a few, should be a good start.

[Jesters-Ink]

Hi Jim, I try and stick to four projects at a time. Sometimes it gets out of hand and there ends up being more. Right now I am very keen to find out the "who, where, when and W.Nr for the profile on previous of this post triple chevron white 4. It’s the aircraft that inspires me, not the pilot. I'm not bothered that Rodel didn't fly it, but more interested in who did.

You have got to admit that text on a profile print looks a bit pathetic when it says:-
"Bf109G-2 or 4, somewhere in the desert between 1942 and 43 flown by an unknown pilot".

[G.R.Morrison]

Couldn't help myself with the title of the post. ;-)

To return to the WNr. request, and to address "Who's T6+AD?"

The pranged triple-white-chevron machine is most-likely (see? not much in the Luftwaffe is cast-iron certain!) Bf 109G-2/Trop WNr.10645, written off in a "Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse" (crash-landing, hit an obstruction) 1.December 1942 at Arco Philaenorum. Just as a side note, Muencheberg's 118. was claimed on 27.Nov. 1942

Someone asked about sources. The usual combinations: Quartermaster General's loss reports, A.D.I.(k) report [descriptive Brit. reports on captured airframes], Prien's listing of abandoned/lost Bf 109 airframes in the Mediterranean area, photographs. When one looks through our db for an obscure location, it's always more than likely that other aircraft were reported at the same place (that's where the Arco Philanorum ID came from, but I didn't happen to write down on today's scrap paper note which satellite field location was listed originally -- sorry, didn't think of it)

=+=+=+=

On to "not Rudel" in the Ju 87B/R "T6+AD" John Beaman's referral to "Hein" Bruecker is correct, if you're looking at a machine during the Balkans campaign or earlier. During the onset of the Russian campaign, when Rudel began flying Stuka combat missions (not earlier -- he wasn't yet considered 'reliable' by his Kommodore at the time, "Onkel Oskar" Dinort), his Gruppenkommandeur was Ernst-Siegfried Steen. It's Steen's aircraft that is most-commonly mis-identified as Rudel's. Rudel was at this time the III. Gruppen Technical Officer. Steen was KIA 23.September 1941. After taxiing his 'own' T6+AD into a pothole, he appropriated Rudel's T6+CD, together with Rudel's radio operator Alfred Scharnowski, for what turned out to be his fatal flight, returning to Kronstadt to attack Soviet capital ships.

Rudel did not succeed Steen as Gruppenkommandeur. Gustav Pressler was posted in from St.G.77 and became Kommandeur of III/St.G. 2 (Indeed, ANOTHER T6+AD, a winter-camouflaged Ju 87D-1, is another mis-identified machine; Pressler not Rudel). Rudel became Staffelkpaitaen of the 1./St.G. 2. He did not become III/St.G. 2 Kommandeur until 1943. The photo of him waiting for takeoff in his Ju 87D-5 has been widely reprinted, so you may be familiar with that one. His usual backseater was Erwin Hentschel.

Sorry this is so long; hope it clarified rather than further clouded the waters, GRM

[Jesters-Ink]

Thanks GRM, what percentage of certainty would you place on the triple chevron being the Works number you have there? And is there any chance of finding out the pilots name at all? I know I ask a lot and you have already given us plenty, but it would be handy to know.

[Von Alles]

Thank you George and John for help about T6+AD !!!

von Alles

[G.R.Morrison]

Originally Posted by Jesters-Ink

...what percentage of certainty would you place on the triple chevron being the Works number you have there? And is there any chance of finding out the pilots name at all? ...

Well, when the marking and WNr. and location appear on a document, you can be relatively certain. I use the wiggle-room of 'relatively' because a typo can occur to anyone, and even the "official" documents and loss lists contain them. Transposed numbers are not uncommon. This is ANOTHER thing that makes our db so useful, its sorting ability -- but it also reveals sometimes-frustrating anomalies as well...

Now as to determining the pilot's name: who an aircraft is prepared for and who flies it are not necessarily the same pilot. When examining logbooks, one can observe that a pilot may test-fly or transfer an aircraft for a single flight; in other instances he may use the same airframe for months at a time. Lacking Muencheberg's logbook, there can be no confirmation that he was flying this machine on that date. Here's a perfect Desert example: Schroer was the Staffelkapitaen of the 8./JG 27. He was photographed with "schwarze 1" in the late summer of 1942 (I'm not refering here to his later "rote 1" that he was flying on Rhodes). But on the day he claims six P-40s, he's flying "schwarze 6" -- see what I mean?

This does not, probably, provide you with the absolute certainty you hoped for, but as you venture further down the road of history, certainties seem to become less frequent. I tend to look at much of history as "What I THOUGHT I knew." Now the good news is, maybe someday another piece of the puzzle presents itself. The bad news is very much of Luftwaffe documentation is gone -- but that makes the hunt all the more intriguing! As Jim reminded us, remember 20 years ago. We're much richer today -- we have a board like this one!

HTH, GRM

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear All

Late as always, when looking in Jagdwaffe Vol 4 Sec 4 (publ in 2004) the aircraft has been "downgraded" a bit to "thought to have been abandoned at Catania in July 1943" and "possibly flown by Gustav Rödel". Two photos shown, right side only...very typical of course, since the three view drawing here shows the left side. Jagdwaffe shows the right side in their colour profile and this WITHOUT any JG 27 marking.

With ref to GRM and his thoughts about WNr 10645, Prien in his JG 77 Vol 3 quotes a British report that it was found on Melacha airfield on 22.1.1943 and only fuselage remains was found. Importantly this report seems NOT to mentioned the digit 4, but ONLY the three chevrons. This find should also be put in context with the initial report by Luftwaffe that it was only slightly damaged (25%) at an unknown base when it crashlanded 1.12.1942. Also the two published photos shows, to me, an aeroplane that has made a ground loop (look at the landing gear...) which also, to me, is NOT indicative of a crashlanding, but maybe the German language in reports was rather unprecise. Neither does the photos look like the aeroplane has hit any obstacle, but again they are onesided and it would be very interesting to have a look at the other side. Has anyone any reference where the left side is shown?

So GRM I still have doubts about the ID of the WNr being correct, but I am in favour of those who say it is from JG 77 and not JG 27.

Unfortunately Jagdwaffe does NOT say from where THEIR pictures originate. The two lightly clad individuals could be from either side, but IF the photos were taken by the British then the aeroplane is deff not captured under "fuselage parts". If it is German photos, well....

Cheers
Stig

[Jim P.]

Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse should not be crashlanding hit obstruction, but crashlanding due to severe/unfavorable ground conditions (i.e potholes, bomb fragments, shellholes or some such occurence).

[F19Gladiator]

Stig, in post No.4 above I put in a ref on the port side:
"Aviation Elite Units 12, Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', John Weal, Page 89:...."

Also regarding capture: One photo clearly shows a P-40 in the background marked CU o ?