Direct Communication Between German Troops and LW Aircraft?

[Boomerang]

Gentlemen:

I don't know a lot about the Luftwaffe's flivos, but my understanding is that they did not communicate directly with aircraft, instead they forwarded information via LW channels, which was used to task pilots. Thus, they weren't Forward Air Controllers in the modern sense.

However, Joel Hayward's Stopped at Stalingrad, quotes the army's Wilhelm Tieke thus: 'Pilots talked to us over the radio...' i.e. direct communication between German ground forces and LW aircraft.

The reference relates to operations in the Caucasus in July/August 1942, the LW units belonged to Fliegerkorps IV, but the information is no more specific than that.

This report raises questions such as was this a one-off response to a fluid operational situation, what sort of radio equipment was used, what types of aircraft participated in this practice, etc.

Any comments would be very welcome.

Thanks

Don W

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

FuG 17 radio was able to keep contact between ground forces and airplane. I think reconnaissance versions of Bf 109 did have this radio. Camera equipment was less important. At least in the Nahaufklärungsgruppen.

Cheers,
Kari

[kalender1973]

Hi,

IIRC Richard Muller in his "German air war in Russia" (1992) claims also
that no direct radio link existed between ground forces(flivo) and planes.

The "Luftwaffe stopped at Stalingrad" appears as not very reliable source for me.

Best regards

[Boomerang]

Kari, Igor:

Thanks for your replies. I must say that your responses set out different views on the issue of direct radio contact between German ground forces and LW aircraft.

Any further comments would be much appreciated.

Don W

[odybvig]

The contact between aircraft and ground army units was regulated by: Merkblatt OKL Lw. Führungsstab,Ausb.Abt. Nr 2880/44 geh.v. 2611.44 "Der Fliegerleitoffisier (Schlacht).
I am not sure if this was a Lw Officer or a Army officer, but it was stressed that the army unit should educate their own if the "Flugleitoffizier" was out of area or lost. And this was regulated by: Merkblatt OKL Lw. Führungsstab, Ausb.Abt. Nr 2600/44 geh.v. Ia/Ausb. 24.9.44 "über Einsatz und ausbildung der Fliegerleitoffisier (Heer)

The Fliegerleitoffizier unit was:
Himself
one NCO (radiooperator)
two privates (radiooperator)
one Driver

Aircraft that could use this comunication was
Jagdverbände with Fug 16z
Schlachtfliegerverbände with Fug 16z
Zerstörerverbande with Fug 10
Nahaufklärer with Fug 16z and Fug 17

That means that at least from 1944 the German army had a Forward Air Controllers in their organisation

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig

[Graham Boak]

I find this very interesting, for I'm not clear on how the tactics worked in 1940 without radio contact between the ground forces, the Henschels, and the Stukas. Without some such contact, the delays in calling for air support would seem to be at odds with the fast movement of the advance.

[Juha]

Hello
only to add to Pieter's excellent post that also some of SdKfz 250/3s were equipped with air-to-ground radios. SdKfz 250 was a smaller armoured half-track but similar to the bigger SdKfz 251.

On timing, according to Florian K. Rothbrust's Guderian's XIXth Panzer Corps and the Battle of France. New York 1990 p.41 during the planning of the attack 1st PzDiv had requested permission for its panzer crews to talk directly to Stuka pilots, to guide them to their targets but Nahkampfführer II (of the Fliegerkorps II) rejected the idea on the grounds that the still technically inferior equipment would not allow that and that he did not want ambitious young tank commanders to divert Stukas destined elsewhere.

Juha

[edwest]

This may have some relevance to the discussion at hand:

http://www.nsa.gov/public/publi00004.cfm


A very lengthy list, not for the feint of heart. I will note that items marked:

NR 6
NR 8
NR 79

May be helpful. Of course, there are many more.



Regards,
Ed

[Boomerang]

Gentleman:

I would like to thank the various contributors for providing such a wealth of information about direct communication between German troops and LW aircraft.

Regards

Don W