Vichy squadron logos

[pbhawkin]

Hi all,
Not sure if Vichy France should be here or under Allied section?
Anyway, Is there a list or pictures of the various squadron logos or insignia used by Vichy French aircraft?

[Von Alles]

Hi,
hum!! Not Allied but not Axis too...
The Vichy air force used the same logos as before the armistice.

Von Alles

[pbhawkin]

Von Alles,
Thanks for the reply but I was referring to the individual (unit) squadron logos like the German squadron crests.
See the attached picture of the Walrus insignia for the Aeronavale HB1 squadron.

[Von Alles]

I am not a french air force expert.
You can try your chance with french books, for instance those published by Lela Presse (www.avions-bateaux.com).
(I have no connection with them).
They have a book about the Laté 298 and more.

Von Alles

[Graham Boak]

Peter, the Vichy Air Force used the same squadron badges/insignia as the prewar, and indeed postwar, French Air Force. I'm afraid that I know of no single source that presents a catalogue of these badges. If you wish for some specific type then I advise you to look for French monographs on that type, such as AILES DE GLOIRE, or look for back issues of French magazines such as AVIONS or AIR MAGAZINE.

If you make a specific request, there are French enthusiasts who visit this site who may be prepared to assist.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Peter

The French unit markings vs actual units is a very complicated business. The whole root to this problem goes as far back as to WW 1 plus the French passion for their inheritance. During WW 1 basically all the so called escadrilles (rough equivalent of the British squadron or the German staffel) of the l'aeronautique militaire francaise, aquired their own symbol - crest. A good start is to get the French book Les escadrilles de l'aeronautique militaire francaise symbolique et histoire 1912-20 or Les insignes de l'aeronautique militaire 1912-1982 by Myrone Cuich.

Due to the french re-organisation post WW 1 the Escadrille was no longer the basic unit, so they started to amalgamate into larger units and the escadrilles turned into a flights in these bigger unit, which ment that the larger unit then had various flights within itself which carried different crests. Postwar this system continued and many times you could find on these modern aeroplanes two different crests on the same aeroplane, one on each side. The Mirage familly is a very good example on that.

However many of the WW 1 escadrilles were disbanded post war and their unit insignias were never continued, some of these were dormant and re-appeared much later either in the same shape or slightly changed. Some units even used "mixed shields" where two different crests had been amalgamated into one.

Post WW 2 basically every french unit, base and/or command structure aquired its own crests, many were brand new and could not trace any history back to WW 1 except the general idea that they simply should have their own signature - recognition.

With regard to Aeronavale I believe they follow the same practice, but I have never looked too deeply into their motives.

As you realise it needs an expert, which I certainly am not, to explain this in a better way, but to make this more comprehensible I would have to start and study the subject a couple of days and sorry to say my time is simply not enough to do that

Cheers
Stig

[pbhawkin]

Many thanks for your replies.
I will have a look in the mentioned publications.

[CJE]

Stig, you summed up quite well the situation.
It looks sometimes strange and hard to understand for foreigners - I'm French, so you all are foreigners :-)

A comprehensive study of the French WWII badges has still to be published.
However, Vichy air force (or armée de l'Air de l'armistice) was a continuation of the 1939-40 French Air Force. Units that were not disbanded by order of the German and Italians armistice commissions kept their badges.

Chris