Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?

[Theo Boiten]

Dear all,

Who could help me in identifying the matching Liberator loss to the following claim on the 5 April 1944 Ploesti raid:

Oblt. Karl Furchmann: 1 11./NJG6 B-24 near Salcioara (SM 1): 4.600 m. 15.27

Cheers and thanks, Theo

[researcher111]

Theo

On the date in question 9 Libs were lost by 15th AF and few more Forts . Salcioara
is NW of Chisinau way off course for any of the 15th AF bombers unless we talk
about Salcioara NW of Bucharest . If the last applies then out of the 9 Libs this
may be the aircraft of Lt.Lael recepient of DSC .

Single thing that does not add up are the Night Fighters , coze in '44 they were active
mainly at night eventhough the Libs were in range of these fighters. Slightly to the
NE of Lael's Lib , Lt Marpe's & Lt.Edwards aircrafts were next Luftwaffe's ftrs victims .

In fact few more Lib's on Ploesti and Bucharest perimeters were attacked by
fighters at least 63 ME-109's along with Romanian IAR-80's which also engaged their escorts.

At this point in time with no other details available , I may not be able to help further .

Alex K

[Theo Boiten]

Hello Alex,

Thanks for these details -I believe that Salcioara NW of Bucharest is the place mentioned in the German Abschussmeldung. On 5.4.44, IV./NJG6 employed eight Bf110s from Otopeni (near Bucharest) against the Ploesti raid.

Do you have the serial number/BS/BG details of the Liberator flown by Lt.Lael, and did this B-24 in fact crash at Salcioara?

Cheers, Theo

[researcher111]

Theo

Lael flew 42-78199 and yes the IV./NJG6 were based at that time at Otopeni, At least 4 Libs gone down near NW and SW of Salcioara, that's all I know . Rest you need to research yourself

[Rainer]

Hi Theo

The details for this claim are slighty different in the lists of Tony Wood:
Oblt. Karl Furchmann 12./NJG 6 B-17 SM-1 bei Sâlcioara: 4.600 m 15.27 Film C.2032/I Anerk: Nr.3

Anyway, the grid mentioned refers to trapez SM-1, presumably in grid 24 Ost N, where Salcioara in Dambovita County, Romania is located.

5 April 1944, 15th AF: 136 B-24s (98BG, 376BG, 449BG, 450BG, 451 BG), followed by 94 B-17s (2BG, 97BG, 99BG, 301BG) bomb the marshalling yards at Ploesti, Romania. 10 B-24s and 3 B-17s are lost to fighters and flak:
MACR4080 B-24H-1-FO 42-7720 451BG/727BS (Stenning) at 1420 attacked by fighters, crew later bailed out over Moreni, Romania
MACR4081 B-24H-5-CF 42-64442 451BG/727BS (Brownell) at 1420 attacked by Fw190s, crew bailed out over Slatina, Romania
MACR3951 B-24G-10-NT 42-78185 450BG/720BS (Marpe) at 1425 attacked by fighters, crashed near Vacaresti, southeast of Targoviste, Romania
MACR3965 B-24H-20-FO 42-94950 450BG/720BS (Wagner) at 1425 attacked by Me109s, crew bailed out over Topoloveni, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR3885 B-24J-85-CO 42-100252 450BG/722BS (Beene) at 1425 attacked by fighters, bombed target but left formation at 1450 near Baltita, Romania to crash land
MACR3960 B-24G-10-NT 42-78199 450BG/723BS (Lael) at 1426 attacked by fighters, crashed at Calinesti, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR4082 B-24H-5-FO 42-52081 451BG/727BS (Williams) at 1427 attacked by fighters, crashed at Calinesti, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR4032 B-24H-5-FO 42-52103 451BG/727BS (McAllister) at 1435 attacked by fighters, crew bailed out over Ocnita, northeast of Targoviste, Romania
MACR3918 B-24H-15-FO 42-52474 451BG/724BS (Stone) hit by flak during target run, at 1441 crew bailed out after dropping bombs on target
MACR3953 B-24H-15-DT 41-28757 450BG/720BS (Edwards) attacked by fighters, bombed target but left formation at 1450 near Gaesti, Romania
MACR3966 B-17F-35-VE 42-5938 97BG/414BS (Howard) at 1430 left formation over Turnu Severin, Romania with feathered #1 engine, later crashed near Zajecar, Serbia
MACR3882 B-17G-5-BO 42-31182 301BG/419BS (Coppedge) at 1530 last seen under attack by six fighters and later crashed north of Plovdiv, Bulgaria
MACR3695 B-17G-30-DL 42-38207 99BG/346BS (Currie) damaged by flak on first mission, crashed near Caracal, Romania

Judging from the time of Karl Furchmann's claim he did not attack the B-24s which were heavily engaged by enemy fighters for 40 minutes before dropping their bombs at 1437. He flew probably one of the few fighters that engaged the B-17s which attacked the same target shortly thereafter and only encountered light fighter opposition.

[researcher111]

Who is Tony Wood ? also ,Stenning's plane S/N was 42 and not a 43

[kaki3152]

Tony Wood is the person who placed the German Luftwaffe Abschuss list on the web.

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by kaki3152

Tony Wood is the person who placed the German Luftwaffe Abschuss list on the web.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130928...s/tonywood.htm

[researcher111]

Kaki / Kutscha thanks for the update, I saw the stuff in the past and I forgot
who the publisher was and for a good reason , as far as my area of research
is concerned the stuff is not accurate and some events contain basic errors as
into the rest of his stuff, I can't speak .

It's good starter kit but not at all a tool for historical accuracy. Citting an other example
Currie acft wreckage fell NNE of Mirosi ( 10-26 Km ) and not Caracal , the distance between
both is not huge but not that close either . All this may apply to the rest of the
claims posted in there including those of Luftwaffe / AAR , Oblt Furchmann's and sofort.

Suggest reading Mr Roba's publications one of which covers German day & night
fighters over Romania .


BR
Alex

[Theo Boiten]

Many thanks chaps for your elaborate replies -IV./NJG6 reported three B-24 Abschüsse on 5.4.44, all of which were officially anerkannt (confirmed) as full victories on 15 August 1944. The other two claims were (alas no locations known):


Ofw. Peter Tiedemann: 1 10./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 13.56
Oblt. Hans Meyer: 1 Stab IV./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 14.08


Cheers, Theo