Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?

[yogybär]

Currently I work on a scenario simluating the atack of the VVS on germans AF's on 5th of July 1943.

My question goes like this:

Did the Bf's of JG52 and JG3 use gunpods in that stage?

[wotan]

During this period both geschwader had a mix of G-4s and G-6s (and some G-2s) and I recall seeing several images of G-4s belonging to JG52 (Hartmann) captioned as G-4/R6s (w/ gondolas) but I am unsure of the date[s]...

EDIT:

Over at Falcon's 109 site there are several images of G-4/R-6s. This may not help you with an actual percentage or total number of gondola equipped 109s for 5 July '43 but it shows some JG 52 G-4s were such equipped leading up to that date.

Most Orbats I have seen for the LW at Kursk don't specify sub-type (just G-4, G-6 etc...)

I am sure you have seen Pavel's Air Battle over Kursk 1943 site. In the lost list for JG 3 and JG 52 there are werk-numbers listed so you may be able to track down how many of those lost were equipped with gondolas.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Yes, and the Hungarian fighters used /R-6 variants in July as well (in the same area).

[yogybär]

Yes, pictures are there, right. Thanks!

Werknummern wouldn't help because the pods were removable.

Csaba, the Hungarians flew a mix of F-4 and G-2, right?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by wotan

Over at Falcon's 109 site there are several images of G-4/R-6s. This may not help you with an actual percentage or total number of gondola equipped 109s for 5 July '43 but it shows some JG 52 G-4s were such equipped leading up to that date.

Most Orbats I have seen for the LW at Kursk don't specify sub-type (just G-4, G-6 etc...)

It's correct. 'G-4/R-6' is an incorrect designation,the gunpods kit, Rustsatz VI did not show up in the aircraft designation. A G-4 with or without gondolas, bombs, or draptank is the same, a G-4.

The /R-something designations are only for factory converted planes, ie. long range recces with two droptanks, tactical recces etc.

[Jens]

BTW also Woroshejkin identified R6 at Kursk, he mentioned as new G6.

[RT]

Concerning the hungerian mules, how much aircrafts are concerned by ??

I don't find any ref. of F-4 on the docs..

Remi

[Dénes Bernád]

AFAIK, the Hungarians received the first used F-4Bs in December 1942, at the time when the Rumanians - the only other small Axis power heavily involved in combat on the Eastern Front - were still flying 'Emils' nearby Stalingrad.

As for the word 'Nazis', it refers to members of the National-Socialist ('Nazi') Party. Therefore, the usage of this overused adjective should be avoided by any serious historian in a military history context. The same is valid for the usage of the word 'Communist', too.

[George Hopp]

Your similar stories are wrong. You should compare the Hungarians to the Croats, Slovaks and Romanians, who all flew with G's in first half of 1943, when the Hungarians got still old, crap F-4's.

Were the 109Gs in early 1943 actually better than the 109F-4s? As I recall, the DB 605As were, relatively speaking, garbage, at this time; and the pilots probably had a better chance of surviving with the DB 601E than with the DB 605A.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

AFAIK, the Hungarians received the first used F-4Bs in December 1942, at the time when the Rumanians - the only other small Axis power heavily involved in combat on the Eastern Front - were still flying 'Emils' nearby Stalingrad.

As for the word 'Nazis', it refers to members of the National-Socialist ('Nazi') Party. Therefore, the usage of this overused adjective should be avoided by any serious historian in a military history context. The same is valid for the usage of the word 'Communist', too.

Dénes,

The Hungarians received their first F-4's not in December, 1942. I mentioned 1943, when the Romanian flew with G-2's, when the Hungarian used still F-4's. And the Romanians flew with Emils in 1941 too, when the Hungarians used CR 42's in Ukraine.

I know very well, who were the Nazis. BTW I have many unpublished documents regarding the Hungarian-German military and economical relationship (regarding the aircraft businesses as well - significant number of the German functionaries, who worked in this line, were members of the NSDAP)

George,

IMHO between the F-4 and G-2, there was only a small difference, but these used F-4's had generally very old engines, with a lot of mechanical problems. I have many details about crashes, crash landings because engine troubles from this period (and the old pilots mentioned me additional ones, which not remained in the documents).