JGr.176 27th september 1939

[Bernard]

Good afternoon,

On the 27th september 1939, GC II/4 claimed two Bf109s of JGr.176.
Could anyone tell me the names of the pilots and their fate.
The circumstances of their loss.
Where they involved in the engagement that cost the life of Sgt Vickers
( No 103 squadron ).?

Thanks a lot.

Bernard.

[Jim P.]

Click on FAQ thread at top of page. This will take to a site that has files with LW claims.

[robert]

Hi,


the only loss was:

27.09.39 JGr176 NN Luftkampf, Notlandung Weisskirchen 5% Bf109 D-1

The FB from 103 RAF was s/d by Gefr.Josef Scherm from JGr152.

Hope this helps.

Robert

[Peter Cornwell]

Confirming Robert's reply, I have the following:

WEDNESDAY, September 27

JGr.152 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by return fire during attack on No.103 Squadron Battles west of Hornbach and crashed near Bockweiler 12.30 p.m. Gefr J. Scherm killed. Aircraft a write-off.

JGr.176 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Forced-landed at Weisskirchen damaged in combat with Curtiss H-75As over Wolfersheim, east of Hornbach 1.25 p.m. Probably that attacked by Sgt de La Chappelle of GC II/4. Pilot unhurt. Aircraft repairable.

[Marius]

Hello,

I have analized every single Luftwaffe loss for September 1939 (for my work about Polish campaign) and wrote a huge article, which will be published in the near future. The article will disillusion many people who are seriously referring (only) to OKL loss lists for the period 1939-1940.

For the 27.9. I can tell you the following:

JGr.152, Ogefr. Scherm was shot down by Battles of 103 Sqd RAF.
JGr.176, according to OKL the Bf 109D was damaged 5%, but I think this should be 50%. The Messerschmitt was hit by Sgt de La Chapelle from GC II/4.

Furthermore 2 Bf 109D`s of JGr.176 were shot down by Sous Lt Baptizet and Adj Tesseraud from GC II/4. Uffz. Köpke and Olt. Riner (or Rinow) were killed.

Many regards,
Marius

[Peter Cornwell]

Marius,

Like many other visitors to this forum, & one who tries to make sense of such things - not purely from OKL loss returns, I was interested in your statement that RHINOW & KOEPKE both died in the action with GC II/4 on 27 September 1939.

As this contradicts, in almost every respect, accepted wisdom on the subject may I enquire as to your sources for this alternative version of events ?

Many thanks.

[Marius]

Peter,
sorry, Rhinow was slightly injured, of course. Peter or anybody else, can you confirm with a German document the date of the "collision" as 29.9. ?

The damage of 5% is much questionable, because you will not find any other 5% damage for that period. Apparently 5% damages were not reported to the OKL. Furthermore the Bf 109 force landed with hits from an enemy fighter! The 50% damage is much more likely (maybe "0" had gone lost somewhere on the way to Göring...).

Best wishes,
Marius