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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#1
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Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Hi guys
Here is an interesting thread that I came across on a Russian language forum concerning claims and losses of the Luftwaffe and VVS over East Prussia in 1944. I have no idea how accurate the information posted is (perhaps the various Russian contributors can inform us) but I hope this is useful and helpful. https://forum-kenig.ru/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4513 Horrido! Leo |
#2
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Thanks for sharing it. A very interesting (and long) thread, even if the methodlogy to link German claims to Soviet losses is not well detailled. Especially, I wonder if the author checked both location and time, and if he is not considering most missing aircraft as shot down by Luftwaffe where they could be shot down by Flak or lost operationnaly. The "who shot who" studies are heavily depending of the method used, but at least here the author includes all known claims and losses for both sides.
If Theo Boiten reads it, night losses and NJG claims for E Prussia in October 1944 are included, so may interest you. |
#3
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Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Hi Laurent
I've tried my hand at identifying claims and losses and generally it's quite a meticulous and challenging task. Due to multiple claims in the same engagement, not to mention the frequent over-claiming involved to some degree or another, it's rather difficult to match a specific claim to a specific loss. Often, the best one can manage is to identify the unit(s) involved. I've seen some excellent work in this area but also some that doesn't convince me of the objectivity involved. For example, someone will "match" a favored ace or unit's claims to known losses while ignoring competing claims and so forth. I've also seen cases where people will associate all losses to fighter claims while ignoring that Flak or non-combat reasons were involved in certain instances according to the other side's loss list entries as you have mentioned. At any rate, I think that this is a quite interesting thread, especially since units such as JG 51 and JG 54 are prominently mentioned and can help further our knowledge of a very interesting aspect of the air war. Horrido! Leo |
#4
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Soviet 3rd Belarus Front, 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 74 GvShAP IL-2 Sturmovik losses in Poland, East-Prussia and Germany in 1944-45. (After May 5, 1945: 15 VA, 74 GvShAP):
YYYY.MM.DD:.. Type: …... AC S/N: .... Event: …........ Pilot: 1944.06.11. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1870693 ….. crashlanded ….. Ilinskii 1944.06.23. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18780101 ….. combat loss ….. Semenov 1944.06.23. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875999 ….. combat loss ….. Maiakov 1944.06.23. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18719102 ….. combat loss ….. Bryukonov 1944.06.25. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18772101 ….. combat loss ….. Kapril 1944.06.26. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18788101 ….. combat loss ….. Malih 1944.06.29. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1873999 ….. combat loss ….. Vasin 1944.06.29. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18718102 ….. combat loss ….. Pavlyuk 1944.06.29. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18721102 ….. combat loss ….. Potapkin 1944.06.30. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1888501 ….. accident ….. Rudenko 1944.07.02. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 12102 ….. combat loss ….. Krasnov 1944.07.05. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 9102 ….. combat loss ….. Berezin 1944.07.06. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1879299 ….. combat loss ….. Okrestin 1944.07.30. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18704102 ….. combat loss ….. Kashura 1944.08.09. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18725102 ….. combat loss ….. Nebikov 1944.08.09. ….. IL-2m3 ….. …… ….. combat loss ….. Makarov 1944.08.09. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875299 ….. combat loss ….. Vasin 1944.08.17. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ….. ….. crashlanded ….. Astashov 1944.08.20. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ….. ….. crashlanded ….. Safonov 1944.08.29. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1880301 ….. accident ….. Kayagin 1944.10.16. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1874964 ….. combat loss ….. Sotolon? 1944.10.16. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18774101 ….. combat loss ….. Nikolaev 1944.10.17. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18722102 ….. combat loss ….. Chudin 1944.10.20. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1870798 ….. combat loss ….. Dtengaradzhe 1944.10.20. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18777101 ….. combat loss ….. Saiko 1944.10.20. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 5815 ….. combat loss ….. Vorobyev 1944.10.20. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18781101 ….. combat loss ….. Boitsov 1944.10.22. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875299 ….. combat loss ….. Shatapin 1944.10.23. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1877699 ….. combat loss ….. Malinovskii 1944.10.23. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18826114 ….. combat loss ….. Kolotoets 1944.10.31. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18710102 ….. combat loss ….. ..glov?? 1944.12.08. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18720102 ….. combat loss ….. Victorov 1944.12.08. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1874999 ….. combat loss ….. Zaharev 1944.12.08. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ….. ….. combat loss ….. Pokt...utkin? 1944.12.?? ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1874894 ….. combat loss ….. Astashov 1945.01.13. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1888601 ….. scrapped ….. Satapin 1945.01.16. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 25012 ….. combat loss ….. Andryukhin 1945.01.16. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ….. ….. combat loss ….. Sebinskii 1945.01.17. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 304844 ….. accident ….. Astashov 1945.01.19. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ..5817 ….. combat loss ….. Polyakov 1945.01.19. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1874899 ….. combat loss ….. Zaharev 1945.01.19. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875098 ….. combat loss ….. Safonov 1945.01.19. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1872798 ….. combat loss ….. Andaxin 1945.01.26. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 10904 ….. combat loss ….. Zaharev 1945.02.02. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875967 ….. posadki ….. Spinkov 1945.02.05. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1874980 ….. combat loss ….. Miroshnichenko 1945.02.15. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18790101 ….. combat loss ….. Kairin? 1945.02.15. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18871114 ….. crashlanded ….. Potapkin 1945.02.17. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18729102 ….. scrapped ….. ..senko 1945.02.21. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 5826 ….. crashlanded ….. Gavrin 1945.02.21. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 9629 ….. scrapped ….. Pankov 1945.02.28. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18776101 ….. scrapped ….. Zolotarskii 1945.03.01. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18708102 ….. crashlanded ….. Potapkin 1945.03.06. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ….. ….. scrapped ….. Boitsov 1945.03.18. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18890117 ….. combat loss ….. ..glov?? 1945.03.18. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875582 ….. combat loss ….. Poklikushkin??? 1945.03.18. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 305136 ….. scrapped ….. Vasin 1945.03.24. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18824120 ….. combat loss ….. Vorobyev 1945.04.07. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1875970 ….. combat loss ….. Bereza 1945.04.13. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18804120 ….. combat loss ….. Suhovolskii 1945.04.13. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18726102 ….. combat loss ….. Maslov 1945.04.22. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 1876462 ….. combat loss ….. Polyakov Post-war: 1945.09.11. ….. IL-2m3 ….. ..3075 ….. accident ….. Sintsov 1945.09.11. ….. IL-2m3 ….. 18722102 ….. accident ….. Kupilov (ЦАМО, 1 Гв. ШАД, Фонд 20002, опись 1, Д. 129. Please note, that original document is hand-written, therefore some names might contain typos as they are hard to read.) Gabor |
#5
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Soviet 3rd Belarus Front, 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 75 GvShAP IL-2 Sturmovik losses in Poland, East-Prussia and Germany in 1944-45:.
YYYY.MM.DD:.. Type: ... AC S/N: .... Event: ........ Pilot: 1944.06.12. .. IL-2m3 .. ...7957 .. scrapped .. Favorisov 1944.06.23. .. IL-2m3 .. ...3115 .. crashlanded .. Fomin 1944.06.24. .. IL-2m3 .. ...4401 .. crashlanded .. Filitonov 1944.06.25. .. IL-2m3 .. ...1002 .. accident .. Atseev? 1944.07.05. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875280 .. combat loss .. Kireev 1944.08.01. .. IL-2m3 .. ...1469 .. combat loss .. Maslenkov 1944.08.28. .. IL-2m3 .. ...9445 .. crashlanded .. Vasilev 1944.09.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 10196 .. combat loss .. Kirnichev 1944.09.26. .. IL-2m3 .. 1878978 .. combat loss .. Glushenko 1944.09.28. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. scrapped .. Stepanov 1944.10.06. .. IL-2m3 .. 10566 .. scrapped .. Fogicheev 1944.10.16. .. IL-2m3 .. 10619 .. combat loss .. Oboznii 1944.10.16. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870875 .. combat loss .. Favorisov 1944.10.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 1873097 .. combat loss .. Sannikov 1944.10.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870581 .. combat loss .. Sokolov 1944.10.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 305854 .. combat loss .. Vasilev 1944.10.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870193 .. combat loss .. Asichenko .. 70193 1944.10.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870193 .. combat loss .. Abramov .. o193 1944.10.22. .. IL-2m3 .. 1878692 .. combat loss .. Popov 1944.10.22. .. IL-2m3 .. 1877998 .. combat loss .. Abramov 1944.10.25. .. IL-2m3 .. 1885801 .. combat loss .. Belousov 1944.11.04. .. IL-2m3 .. ...1414 .. combat loss .. Kazakov 1944.12.08. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875977 .. combat loss .. Udovchenko 1944.12.08. .. IL-2m3 .. 10387 .. combat loss .. Pravednii 1945.01.15. .. IL-2m3 .. 10575 .. combat loss .. Komarov 1945.01.18. .. IL-2m3 .. o980 .. combat loss .. Kartichev 1945.01.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 3057 .. combat loss .. Maximov 1945.01.28. .. IL-2m3 .. o196 .. scrapped .. Stepanov 1945.01.28. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875977 .. crashlanded .. Satunov 1945.01.29. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. crashlanded .. Maximov 1945.02.02. .. IL-2m3 .. 5091 .. scrapped .. Chernikov 1945.02.05. .. IL-2m3 .. 6626 .. crashlanded .. Doichev 1945.02.11. .. IL-2m3 .. .. scrapped .. Sapunov 1945.02.11. .. IL-2m3 .. 1002 .. scrapped .. Tiktaev 1945.02.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876379 .. scrapped .. Shimko 1945.02.19. .. IL-2m3 .. 305141 .. scrapped .. Polozov? 1945.02.19. .. IL-2m3 .. 1885801 .. scrapped .. Sapunov 1945.02.23. .. IL-2m3 .. 305854 .. scrapped .. Maslencev 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. combat loss .. Alexandrov 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 10402 .. scrapped .. Sapunov 1945.03.19. .. IL-2m3 .. 305127 .. scrapped .. Hatakyan 1945.03.21. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875868 .. combat loss .. Doichev 1945.03.24. .. IL-2m3 .. 306639 .. combat loss .. Udovchenko 1945.03.24. .. IL-2m3 .. 1872299 .. scrapped .. Vasilev 1945.03.26. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870396 .. combat loss .. Varigin 1945.04.07. .. IL-2m3 .. ...5912 .. combat loss .. Matveev 1945.04.07. .. IL-2m3 .. ...6711 .. crashlanded .. Kaplunov 1945.04.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1877895 .. combat loss .. Semeiko 1945.04.22. .. IL-2m3 .. scrapped Tarakanov 1945.05.05. .. IL-10 .. 189 . .. scrapped .. Filimonov 1945.05.09. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875874 .. crashlanded .. Filimonov Post-war: 1945.07.12. .. IL-10 .. 189 .. .. scrapped .. Dopinin 1945.08.07. .. Po-2 .. .. scrapped .. Pur..skin 1945.08.27. .. IL-2m3 .. .. scrapped .. Doichev (ЦАМО, 1 Гв. ШАД, Фонд 20002, опись 1, Д. 129. Please note, that original document is hand-written, therefore some names might contain typos as they are hard to read.) Gabor |
#6
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Soviet 3rd Belarus Front, 1 VA, 1 GvShAD HQ. (Div. Stab.) IL-2 Sturmovik loss(es) in Poland, East-Prussia and Germany in 1944-45:
YYYY.MM.DD:.. Type: ... AC S/N: .... Event: ........ Pilot: 1944.06.28. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876692 .. crashlanded .. Dobrinin (injured, dep. div. comm.) - Kuzmin (mechanic) Transfer flight to Hlamov??? airfield. Single loss. Gabor |
#7
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
In this thread losses are described not only over East Prussia, but also over Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. Author not try to figure out "who shot who", he gave claims and losses to figure out how many claims are confirmed. He have places and days where claims made, also he have places and days where losses occured. I have possibilities to compare data for Libau with mu own and found that author was quite right in most days.
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#8
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Re: Claims and Losses over East Prussia
Soviet 3rd Belarus Front, 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 136 GvShAP IL-2 Sturmovik losses in Poland, East-Prussia and Germany in 1944-45:.
YYYY.MM.DD:.. Type: ... AC S/N: .... Event: ........ Pilot: 1944.06.23. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870570 .. combat loss .. Gerenkov 1944.06.24. .. IL-2m3 .. 1874670 .. crashlanded .. Naumenko 1944.06.27. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870470 .. combat loss .. Nikonov 1944.06.30. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875975 .. combat loss .. Popuyanov 1944.06.30. .. IL-2m3 .. 10602 .. crashlanded .. Kuznetsov 1944.07.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 1872770 .. crashlanded .. Tarasov 1944.07.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 10495 .. crashlanded .. Malchenko 1944.07.29. .. IL-2m3 .. 1878694 .. combat loss .. Zaitsev 1944.07.30. .. IL-2m3 .. 10526 .. crashlanded .. Blinskii 1944.07.30. .. IL-2m3 .. 1879693 .. crashlanded .. Belov 1944.08.02. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876078 .. combat loss .. Suharev 1944.08.09. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. landing .. Loboka 1944.08.10. .. IL-2m3 .. 1874775 .. landing .. Gerasimov 1944.09.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 9737 .. landing, repaired .. Veitda .za 1944.09.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 1872370 .. landing .. Kuznetsov 1944.09.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 1873180 .. landing .. Ovchinnikov 1944.10.06. .. IL-2m3 .. 9737 .. combat loss .. Samarov 1944.10.09. .. IL-2m3 .. 9869 .. combat loss .. Lutin 1944.10.09. .. IL-2m3 .. 9898 .. landing .. Blinskii 1944.10.09. .. IL-2m3 .. 1871389 .. combat loss .. Mudrii 1944.10.13. .. IL-2m3 .. 18757100 .. combat loss .. Kondakov 1944.10.16. .. IL-2m3 .. 10579 .. combat loss .. Polyakov 1944.10.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 1873180 .. combat loss .. Ovchinnikov 1944.10.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1874593 .. combat loss .. Hohlov 1944.10.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870278 .. combat loss .. Vinokurov 1944.10.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 1879369 .. landing .. Mudrizin 1944.10.23. .. IL-2m3 .. 1870596 .. landing .. Lutin 1944.10.28. .. IL-2m3 .. 1872370 .. scrapped .. Zachidulin 1944.11.27. .. IL-2m3 .. 304149 .. landing .. Kalinin 1945.01.05. .. IL-2m3 .. 1879195 .. combat loss .. Lisko 1945.01.15. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. crashlanded .. Mi o 1945.01.15. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. landing .. Veistorii 1945.01.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 305853 .. scrapped .. Bitcheskov 1945.01.17. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. combat loss .. Veistorii 1945.01.17. .. IL-2m3 .. .. .. combat loss .. Chumak 1945.01.27. .. IL-2m3 .. 10898 .. combat loss .. Belov 1945.01.29. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876995 .. scrapped .. Kuznetsov 1945.02.02. .. IL-2m3 .. 5662 .. scrapped .. Frolkin 1945.02.03. .. IL-2m3 .. 18887114 .. scrapped .. Dyatkov 1945.02.03. .. IL-2m3 .. ..142 .. landing .. Kuznecov 1945.02.11. .. IL-2m3 .. 10885 .. crashlanded .. Surkov 1945.02.17. .. IL-2m3 .. 10042 .. combat loss .. Kalinin 1945.02.20. .. IL-2m3 .. 10813 .. combat loss .. Izotov 1945.02.21. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875975 .. combat loss .. Koselev 1945.02.21. .. IL-2m3 .. 10995 .. combat loss .. Bitchenkov 1945.02.21. .. IL-2m3 .. 9906 .. combat loss .. Feidil? 1945.02.21. .. IL-2m3 .. 1875299 .. combat loss .. Andronov 1945.03.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 9666 .. scrapped .. Andronov 1945.03.01. .. IL-2m3 .. 304532 .. crashlanded .. Buslov 1945.03.04. .. IL-2m3 .. 304932 .. crashlanded .. Buslov 1945.03.04. .. IL-2m3 .. .5968 .. combat loss .. Zagidulin 1945.03.04. .. IL-2m3 .. 306627 .. combat loss .. spi ov 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 306948 .. combat loss .. Buchin 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 305736 .. combat loss .. Popuyanov 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 10777 .. combat loss .. Baranov 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 306336 .. scrapped .. Vetrov 1945.03.18. .. IL-2m3 .. 1878288 .. combat loss .. Lapin 1945.03.19. .. IL-2m3 .. 305959 .. combat loss .. Tarasov 1945.03.19. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876780 .. combat loss .. Madrigin 1945.03.25. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876691 .. combat loss .. Kuznetsov 1945.04.07. .. IL-2m3 .. 306326 .. landing .. Kozenkov 1945.04.13. .. IL-2m3 .. 1876599 landing .. Panferov 1945.05.04. .. IL-2m3 .. 305861 combat loss .. Karnegin? (ЦАМО, 1 Гв. ШАД, Фонд 20002, опись 1, Д. 129. Please note, that original document is hand-written, therefore some names might contain typos as they are hard to read. Here, and all in the prev. lists the AC serials were recorded in their short version (so batch No. and AC within batch No. only), eg. '5299', not the full No., including the factory part, like: '1875299'. But here I completed the serials to their 'long', full version.) Gabor |
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