Mystery Spad?

[musec04]

Hello,


Currently on delcampe is a photo of a Spad S.904 at:


https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlero...946678175.html


Is this the Spad 5?


Probably not such a mystery to someone who knows there way around Spad aircraft, but new to me.


Edit. Bet it turns out to be post war and not a mystery.



Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

First of all Clint, I don't know what it is, but a very interesting find!

Secondly I don't believe it is postwar, at least not a fighter. Marking on the tail (S.904) is very high for anything built postwar. Also the engine mount/cowling looks decidely "old fashioned", making me think for something postwar a rather retrograde design.

Is it just me, or does it look a bit trainer like? If it is a windscreen we are looking at it looks very flat and quite wide. Could it be a side-by-side trainer?
Not that I have ever heard of one from the SPAD company, so this also looks a bit far fetched.

Perhaps you should put a question to the French forum you seem to frequent?

If it is a wartime aircraft, the s/n is higher than both the initial SPAD VII and XIII. Quite a puzzle...

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the reply. I was just covering all my angles and getting in my excuses early when I wrote post war. I agree it looks too old to be post war.Your comment about the serial number is sound. Its probably really to high to be the Spad 5. I went for that after noticing that Davilla and Soltan don't have a photo.But as for what it is?


If you are getting your Spad 13 serials from

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ciete_SPAD.htm I wondered given how hard (at least for me) it is to tell a Spad 7 from a Spad 13, whether the low S.13 numbers are not in fact all really Spad 7s and therefore S.901 has a Spad designation somewhere between S.7 and S.13, but then again you have the low number S.12s on that site.But given the date the S.12 was produced those serials too look to low. Partial serials taken as the whole number I'll bet.


Regards,


Clint

Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well Clint

Without knowing in detail how neither the French production nor application of the SFA numbers worked, the below is built on guesswork, but here we go.

Initially the SPAD was not a very successful company.
Not until the very useful S.VII/XIII and other types based on that came along did they reach maturedom.

I can well imagine SFA assigning s/n 1-999 to SPAD
Then giving 1000 and up to someone else, 2000 to a third company etc. No idea how big these assigned batches were. Possibly in my books/articles somewhere.
We can be very certain though that no way almost 19000 SPAD aircraft were built furing the war!

Possibly the batches were allocated by SFA to factories, meaning that if SPAD built aircraft in more than one factory, such a place may have been given its own batch number

As you can see from the Denis site S.904 is in a sort of "limbo" all by itself
Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


I haven't been looking at French serials for long, but the numbers it seems to me were specific to the manufacturers. I haven't checked on Albindenis before writing this and of course though the serials there are very useful they are very incomplete.


What I'm saying is Spad had a S.901, but Breguet had a Br.901 and Nieuport a N.901 and so forth.


The numbers we're seeing are not SFA assigned IMHO.


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Aha Clint

I think you confuse Italian serialnumbers with French

SFA gave every manufacturer the same ranges.
You will have plenty of duplicated numbers, differing in their letter code only.

Cheers
Stig

[jschreiber]

Hello
You have another one here :
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LIV1938-Phot...EAAOSw1IhcNOOQ


Without old SFA number, but with a new, more chronological number, type specific. This new numbering was introduced for the purchases of new types, starting 1920 (don’t ask me for the precise date !).
The SFA numbering is a bit nightmarish and never full deciphered... Ranges of numbers were allocated for each manufacturer, and I suppose that the Spads built by SPAD had not exhausted the 1-999 initial range in 1918 and therefore numbers at the high end of that range were used for prototypes or small batches. No wonder if the bulk batches of Spad 7 or 13 are high above the 999, they belong to purchases at other manufacturers that SPAD (they were a dozen at least), or at SPAD with a batch too big for using the remaining numbers in the 1-999 range at the time of the purchase.

Regards
Jean

[musec04]

Thanks Jean,


That adds some clarity and tends to support Stig's initial post as far as the SFA allocating numbers is concerned. Also useful information as in future if I see a three figure number on a Spad type in future I may well now decide to look at Post war machines first. I take it from your comments about SFA nightmares no book has been released which is informative on wartime Spad serials ?


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Jean

I have to differ from your assessment of the "new" SPAD 34-2 photo.
It is not S.88 but S.88x, you cannot see the last digit.

As far as I am concerned it fits perfectly into the SFA range in the mid S.700 to S.1000 range.

With regard to companies that built SPAD fighters during WW 1 there are at least 15 known. There were over 7000 SPAD VII/XIII (and XII/XVII) built and no there is no list dealing with all of them.
Most likely the first S.VII was S.108 (S.110 is known) and the highest number so far in the early SPAD production was S.758. There is actually also a report of a SPAD XIII having No S.848, but I have never seen that verified.

Thus, next comes S.1001 and up leaving a gap of some 240 aircraft.

As can be seen at least some were used for the numbering of S.XX fighters and S.34-2 trainers. I have no idea why these numbers, seemingly on purpose, were left out by SFA in 1916-17 and re-allocated in the 1918-20 time span.

Cheers
Stig

[jschreiber]

Hello Stig
You’re right. The last digit could be a 2. It’s time for me to buy sharper lenses !
Regards
Jean