Le Quang Trung MiG-17

[knusel]

Good evening Gentlemen,

can anybody tell me how many pilots shared in the shared kill of Le Quang Trung on 4Dec1966 ?

Cheers,

Michae

[James A Pratt III]

In reading the Osprey Mig 17 and 19 and Mig 21 books and the Vietnam Air Losses book

There were no US or Allied aircraft losses on 4 Dec 68

Trung did make a claim for an A-4 on 17 Jul 66 but none were lost this day. The US did lose a F-4 and a F-105 this day both do to AA fire

[knusel]

Good evening James,

according to István Toperczer's books Le Quang Trung claimed the following:

• 12Jun66 F-8
• 17Aug66 F-105
• 20Sep66 F-105
• 9Oct66 A-1H
• 4Dec66 (shared) F-105
• 25Apr67 F-105

none of them was confirmed as destroyed in aerial combat according to US records but I am interested in how many pilots received credit for the shared claim by the Vietnamese.

Cheers,

Michael

[James A Pratt III]

Based on both of the above books Mig 17 and 19 units and Mig 21 units by Toperczer Trung only has the one claim on 17 Jul 66. Based on Vietnam Air losses and the above 2 books this is what they have.

12 Jun 66 all 3 nothing

17 Aug 66 a F-105 354 TFS by AA other 2 nothing

20 Sep 66 a A-4 over SVN and a F-4 lost on a night op other 2 nothing

9 Oct 66 a F-4B VF-154 SAM or Atoll from Mig-21 (mig-21 book) dogfight between 4 Mig-17s and 4 A-1s 1 Mig-17 claimed. Mig-17 book nothing

4 Dec 66 F-4B 559 TFS SAM other 2 nothing

25 Apr 67

Mig-17 book has:
Mai Duc Toai
Le Hai
Luu Huy Chao
Hoang Van Ky

5 claims US has:
F-105 354 TFS AA or possibly a Mig
A-4 VA-76 by MIG
A-4 VA-192 SAM or possibly a Mig
A-4 VA-212 SAM
F-8 no US loss

Mig-21 book nothing

Trying to match up claims with losses is a hair tearing out problem to put it mildly. I say this from experience. I have been on this site for over 25 years and have been on theaerodrome.com for about the same time

[knusel]

Hello James,

matching claims with losses is the main topic for many forum members but not for me. My main topic is finding out which aircraft type a certain ace flew on the day he claimed a kill that was officially credited to him.

Do you think that the official US loss list is complete ?

I wish you a good weekend, sincerely,

Michael

[James A Pratt III]

The book Vietnam Air Losses: USAF Navy and Marine Corps fixed-wing aircraft Losses in SE Asia 1961-1973 by Chris Hobson I would say is 99.9% accurate if you read the reviews on Amazon.com so i would say this is the go to book.

[knusel]

Good afternoon James,

meanwhile, I think that the shared claim of Le Quang Trung is not part of his official total of 5. When shared kills are counted as decimals and drones are not counted as kills the official Vietnam Ace list looks like this:

Vietnam War Aces
1. Nguyen Van Coc 9 MiG-21
2. Mai Van Cuong 8 MiG-21
3. Nguyen Hong Nhi 8 MiG-21
4. Pham Thanh Ngan 7,25 [7+1] MiG-21
5. Dang Ngoc Ngu 7 MiG-21
6. Charles DeBellevue (WSO) 6 F-4
7. Le Thanh Dao 6 MiG-21
8. Nguyen Duc Soat 5,25 [5+1] MiG-21
9. Nguyen Ngoc Do 5,25 [5+1] MiG-21
10. Randall Cunningham 5 F-4
11. William Driscoll (WSO) 5 F-4
12. Jeffrey Feinstein (WSO) 5 F-4
13. Le Quang Trung 5 MiG-17
14. Nguyen Dang Kinh 5 [4+2] MiG-21
15. Nguyen Nhat Chieu 5 MiG-17(1)/MiG-21(4)
16. Nguyen Phi Hung 5 MiG-17
17. Richard Ritchie 5 F-4
18. Vu Ngoc Dinh 5 [4+2] MiG-21

[Alex Smart]

Hello Michael, this may not be relevant to your search but thought that you might like it if only to clear up loose ends.
From Scramble's " US Military Aircraft Mishaps 1950-2004" by Jan Van Waarde.

3 December 1966
63-7608 - F-4C - 559thTFS/12th TFW. 15 M, SE of Yen Bai NVN. Shot down by SAM. 2 crew ejected both captured.

Next entery

5 December 1966
56-0165 - RF-101C - 20th TRS/460th TRW. 2 M North of Yen Bai airfield NVN. Hit by gunfire, pilot killed.
62-4331 - F-105D - 421stTFS/388th TFW. Near Ha Hoa,NW of Hanoi NVN, shot down bya Mig 17, pilot Mia.
66-0554 - UH-1C - 1st CAV, SVN, 1 Crewman killed.
??-???? - CH-46A - USMC on a LZ in Northern SVN. Shot down during landing, crew OK.

Pilot details for the 105 loss
https://dpaa-mil.sites.crmforce.mil/...000000utYjtEAE

Alex

[knusel]

Good morning Alex,

thanks for that. You're right, this listing makes it unlikely that the 4Dec claim of Le Quang Trung is valid. According to Mr Toperczer's book this shared claim doesn't seem to be part of his official score of 5. Therefore, I consider him and Nguyen Phi Hung full MiG-17 aces based on official (not necessarily verfied) scores and shared claims counted as decimals.

Have a good Wednesday,

Michael

[Alex Smart]

Good day Michael,

I was looking at the dates, your earlier post has -

4 Dec 66
F-4B 559 TFS SAM

While the "Scramble" has -

3 December 1966
63-7608 - F-4C - 559thTFS/12th TFW. 15 M, SE of Yen Bai NVN. Shot down by SAM.

I would accept that this F-4 is one and the same claim .

So my question is - Why the difference of one day for the loss , has it got something to do with the time that was used by the Vietnamese and the US being different?

Alex