Claim on Bf.109 5th September 1940

[Hans Nauta]

Dear all,

On 5th September 1940 Bf.109E-4 Wnr 5454 from 5./JG54 and piloted by Uffz Günther Behse was lost over the North Sea near Southend.

According to The Battle of Britian Then and Now this loss was attributed to F/Lt Ryder of 41 Squadron, however checking the RAF Fighter Command Victory claims of WWII I'm not confident if this is the right match as this was achived in the Sheppey area...

Anyhow, I hope somebody is specialised in these aerial victories in this period and can help me with a correct match.

Thanks in advance,
Hans Nauta

[Peter Cornwell]

Hans,

According to German records Uffz Günter BEHSE of 5./JG54 went missing in Messerschmitt Bf109E-4 (5353) after combat with RAF fighters south-west of Southend at 14.45 hours (BST).

This places his loss over the Thames Estuary - Isle of Grain area at around the time when seven RAF fighter units reported engagements with enemy fighters over an area spreading from Thameshaven to the Isle of Sheppey. All told they claimed 18 Bf109s destroyed, plus four probables, and another one damaged. So your question poses a fair degree of challenge for anyone attempting to unravel the combats/claims on this date on your behalf. However, they could well be advised to concentrate on the claims submitted by No. 303 Squadron ?

I was most interested to learn that BoBT&N attributes this loss to Norman Ryder of No. 41 Squadron. Can you please advise me in which edition of the book this appears for it does not feature in my text ?

[John Beaman]

Yes, 5454 would be an F.

[Hans Nauta]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your response. Well, your comments say enough! We've similar circumstances here over the Dutch coast, although in far less numbers. And even then it turns out to be impossible to match the claims in most cases. But as the BoB period has been more studied I hoped for a positive result.

With regard to te sources: I should have written Battle over Britain, the older publication by F. K. Mason, hence my wondering about the match with F/Lt Ryder.

Yes John, and at last a typo in the Werknummer. Time for a break, where's my coffee...

Best regards,
Hans Nauta

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, the combat was quite a mess, several units being involved. For example, Frantisek shot down a Me 109 attacking a Spitfire pilot who baled out, so Spitfire were involved as well. Poles were bounced by about 12 Me 109s but it seems there were other ones around as well.

[Chris Goss]

Hans: Never, never use 'Battle over Britain' as a guide to who shot down whom without checking other sources first. The book at the time it was published was first class and Volume 2 was never updated using other sources

[Juha]

Hello
While on Sept 5, may I ask about the mid-air collision between S/L Hood and F/Lt Webster of 41 Sqn? IIRC Hood was leading his sqn to head on attack against Do 17s when they were bounced by Bf 109s. Again IIRC Ryder believed that Hood and Webster collided, both were killed, but is the collision a fact or the most probably scenario? Is it possible that Hood's or Webster's a/c was hit before collision?

TIA
Juha

[Peter Cornwell]

Juha,

Impossible to tell. 'B' Flight of No. 41 Squadron were attacked by superior numbers of Messerschmitt Bf109Es and there was also 'very accurate' AA fire so it's anyone's guess. Certainly, Hood's wingman 'Wally' Wallens has recorded that 'in the melee that followed, 'Robin' and Terry were believed to have collided' though I'm not aware of anyone having witnessed the fact.

[Juha]

Thanks a lot Peter!
The collision is given in BoB Then and Now Vol V and in Shores’ Aces High, both of which naturally because of space constrains doesn’t give more details. A. Robinson in his RAF Fighter Sqns in the BoB gives some details on the action but the collision is mentioned only as what Ryder believed to have happened.. I have some interests on Webster’s career thanks to BoB Then and Now Vol V, while reading it I got an opinion that he was one of those remarkable but little known, at least here in Finland, FC pilots.

Thanks again Peter
Your answer is much appreciated!
Juha

[Chris Going]

Juha and Peter C -can I refer you both to http://brew.clients.ch/Hood41Sqdn2.htm; and http://brew.clients.ch/GrndDiaries41.htm, where I think you will learn something to your advantage, as they used to say.


best


Chris Going