he177 losses query

[damian]

Brett Green over at hyperscale is doing a build of a Mosquito NF.XVII attached to 456 Sqn. RAAF. This aircraft apparently shot down two Heinkel He 177s on the night of 6/7 June 1944. Does anyone know what unit these aircraft would have been from? If so what markings would they have had? It's a long shot but it would be interesting to build one of these from an Aussie perspective.

[Brian]

Hi Damien

456 Squadron claimed four He177s on this night, two falling to Flg Off Fred Stevens and Flg Off Andy Kellett in HK290/RX-J.

In fact, five He177s were lost:
F8+MH (550206) of 1/KG40 Oblt Siegfried Muller and crew
F8+KK (550197) of 2/KG40 Obfw Hans Timm and crew
F8+LK (535731) of 2/KG40 Obfhr Wolfgang Bernrider and crew
F8+IN (550117) of 5/KG40 Oblt Jurgen Hanke and crew
? 5/KG40 Obfw Hans Muller and crew

Hope this helps. For more information see 'Diver! Diver! Diver!' just published.

Cheers
Brian

[Peter D Evans]

Hi Damian,

These are all I can find for the 6th/7th June 1944 as reproduced from Appendix 6 of "Heinkel He177-277-274" by M.Griehl & J.Dressel [Airlife, 1998]

07-06-44 - WNr.550117 - He177A-5 coded F8+HN of 5./KG40 - MIA
07-06-44 - WNr.550198 - He177A-5 coded F8+BK of 2./KG40 - Fighter Kill
07-06-44 - WNr.550204 - He177A-5 coded F8+FK of 2./KG40 - Fighter Kill
07-06-44 - WNr.550206 - He177A-5 coded F8+MH of 1./KG40 - MIA

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Peter D Evans]

We must have been posting at the same time Brian

A quick question - with regards WNr.535731, Griehl & Dressel have this down as a He177A-3 MIA on 08-06-44. Is your data/source more up to date?

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[damian]

thanks for that, much appreciated!

[Brian Bines]

NVM shows 535731 as an A3 the date was typed in as 8.6.44 but the 8 has been changed in ink to a 7,

Regards

Brian Bines

[damian]

are there any good references for camouflage schemes for these aircraft? I have a good japanese book on the he177 but it is more technical in nature.

[Peter D Evans]

Originally Posted by Brian Bines

NVM shows 535731 as an A3 the date was typed in as 8.6.44 but the 8 has been changed in ink to a 7,

Thanks Brian... I'll amend my entry in the Greihl/Dressel book to match

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gentlemen

We have a problem

Brian (Cull)
What is your sources for 5 down on the night of 6-7 June? Comparing your list with the one quoted by Peter from Griehl's book we now have 6 down!

If Brian (Bines) statement is correct the 5th down could be either 550197 (listed as lost on the 8th) or 550204 (listed as lost on the 7th and I suppose the best candidate)

You also state the code for 550117 was F8+IN while Griehl say F8+HN. How come?

Cheers
Stig

[mjbollinger]

Hi everyone,

Various sources report a total of 13 II./KG 40 aircraft lost on the night of 6/7 June, another 7 lost on the night of 7/8 June, two more on 10/11 June and three on 13/14 June, for a total of 25 lost that month. Operational records for II./KG 40 indicate a total of 23 aircraft were lost due to enemy action in June 1944 with one other lost due to other causes. So while the numbers don't match exactly, it is these daily totals are not unreasonable. Unfortunately, these estimates are not accompanied by WkNr or aircraft markings so a reconciliation with bottom-up information is complicated. I'd like to try nonetheless...

Here's what I have

Night of 6/7 June
- As suggested by Chris Goss above
MH/550206/1/KG 40/Mueller
FK/550204/2/KG 40/Hein (shot down & crashed at St Laurent)
KK/550197/2/KG 40/Timm
LK/535731/2/KG 40/Bernrieder (reported as following day by Griehl
? 5/KG 40/Mueller
? 5/KG 40/Hanke -- possibly HN/550117 below
- Other mentioned from various sources
HN/550117/5/KG 40 /reported as MIA -- possibly Hanke above
BK/550198/? reported as a fighter kill
That still leaves 5 or 6 others unaccounted for if the total of 13 is to be believed

Night of 7/8 June
- Possible losess from various sources, mostly Griehl
KK/550197 - but this overlaps with Timm above
MK/550211
DX/535673
These sources also report LK/535731 but I have relocated that above

Night of 10/11 June
- From various sources
BN/550067/4/KG 40 fighter
UX/550074/5/KG 40 AA (this is KM+UX)
- Other possible losses
JH/550175 MIA
DH/550199 MIA

Night of 13/14 June
- From various sources, mostly Griehl
??/550080/4/KG 40 MIA
??/550087/6/KG 40 Enemy action -- possibly shot down by Ivor Cosby
??/500146/4/KG 40 unknown
- And possibly
FH/550216/? MIA

Can anyone assist with this reconciliation?

Thanks

Marty