9./JG27 under Fritz Gromotka over Kos Island in 1943

[HarryB]

Hi! I hope this is the right place to ask.

My father-in-law was a member of the South African Air Force 7th squadron that was severely mauled by Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika' during Churchill's crazy Agean adventure in 1943. We are trying to get as much info as posible about the events of the day of 27 September 1943, when my father-in-law, Lt. Arnold Loubser "Bassie" Basson was downed as wingman to SAAF 7th Sq leader Maj. Van Vliet. By the end of that day, 7 Sq. SAAF had only 4 serviceable Spitfires left.

I am trying to uniquely identify who shot "Bassie" down and what the circumstances were. After that I hope to find out as much as I can about the invidual. In the end, I believe my question reduces to whether anyone here has the following two books, as I badly need a page from each:

1. Jagdgeschwader 27: Die Dokumentation über den Einsatz an allen Fronten 1939-1945 by Hans Ring. I am looking for the page describing the events of 27 September 1943 over Kos and Kalimnos.

2. Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika' by John Weal. Page 99 ( the same day)

------------ My picture so far for those interested ----------------

Using just the Internet and my copy of "Eagles Victorious" about the SAAF, I have so far:

1. "Eagles Victorious" acknowledges 3 Spitfires shot down that day. Two were downed just as they were taking off from Kos. Both pilots died. The third one was Bassie over the ocean, after he and Van Vliet intercepted seven Bf 109s. The book lists no loss of a 4th Spitfire.

2. On the Internet (http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_027c.php) I find four Spitfire kills claimed for JG27 on that day. The two Spits shot down at the airport happened at 15:17 and 15:20 and were credited to Gromotka and Scheit. Gromotka is credited with another Spitfire 1-2 km from Kos at 600 foot at 11:20 in the morning. The fourth was at 11:18 10-15 km Northwest of Kos by Hannes Löffler.---the question is, which of the last two kills was Bassie?

3. We know that an Arado 196 tried to pick up Bassie, but he kept dodging under the plane until the Germans flew off and left him. An Italian caique then picked him up and took him to Kalimnos, the big island northwest of Kos. It seems very unlikely that the boat would have taken Bassie to Kalimnos if he were shot down "1-2 km from Kos" as was supposedly the case for the 11:20 claimed kill on the part of JG27.

4. It seems (though I can only see snippets on Google Books) that Unteroffizier Jakob Herweg must have been the single JG27 man that was downed by Van Vliet, the SAAF Squadron Leader, to whom Bassie was flying as wingman that day. Herweg was picked up by an Italian boat which "already contained some "Engländer" " (Bassie?). When the Arado put down on the water nearby, Herweg jumped overboard and swam for it. He was killed in a bombing run by Mitchells a few days later.

From the above I conclude that Bassie, as Van Vliet's wingman, would have been shot down near Van Vliet's own kill, who was most likely Jakob Herweg. I also conclude that the "Engländer" was none other than Bassie. "Eagles Victorious" says that Herweg was picked up some 20km from Kos. This also checks roughly with the distance at which Bassie was downed, placing both somewhere between the island of Kalimnos and the Turkish mainlaind.

If this is correct, then my father-in-law, Bassie, was the Spitfire kill by Uffz. Hannes Löffler of 9/JG27 under Gromotka 10-15km Northwest of "Insel Kos" at 100 m.

I know "Harry" Löffler went on to become an ace and listed 11 kills, seven of them heavy bombers, and that he went MIA over Paris on 29 June 1944. Bassie evacuated via Turkey and was declared MIA [I have the actual notice to his father], but was actually ok. He then went on to fight in Italy in a ground support role to the Canadians in the 8th Army. There he went down to ack-ack in early 1945 in a bizarre case where he took rounds thorugh both wings and his ammo box blew up. This jammed his aileron, forcing him into flying in a circle through the ack-ack. He eventually baled near his base, barely missing the powerlines and ending up in an Italian hospital with a bust back, which plagued him (along with malaria) for the rest of his life. I have Bassie's tattered flight log for Italy. The Kos log was unfortunately destroyed in the evacuation.
-------------------

I should be able to confirm all these kill-circumstances if I could lay my hands on the two pages of the two books I refer to above. I would really appreciate it if someone could help. I have ordered the Weal book from Amazon.com, but it has been months in arriving and I have nothing yet. I am starting to despair. Meanwhile I have two super pictures of (i) Bassie posing in full kit and (ii) of him next to his "personal" Bf 109 ("My and my 109"). He was qualified on that plane which they took in the African campaign.

Harry

[Steve_Fossey]

Harry,

There are no details on page 99 of Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika' by John Weal. The only mention is "III./JG 27destroyed seven Spitfires without loss in the same area [off K\s] on its first two days back in action".

Steve

[HarryB]

Steve,

Thanks!
...one wonders then how Jakob Herweg got to be in the water!?
..as quoted by Orpen ( "Eagles Victorious") from Ring's book.

Harry

[robert]

Hi,

the loss of Uffz.Jakob Herweg is listed in J.Prien`s "III and IV/JG27" book on the 28.09.43. As reason of loss the engine`s problems were given but it could be not excluded that they were caused by enemy fire. He bailed out northwards of Kos over the see and was later rescued by Italian sailing ship.

Regards

Robert

[HarryB]

Robert,

That's interesting!

Here is the quote from Martin & Orpen:

"Maj. C.A. van Vliet and Lt. A.L. Basson, operating from Lampi, intercepted seven Bf109s south of Kos, and Basson was shot down into the sea, apparently by III/JG27 (ref Ring p.275). He was picked up by an Italian caique [a type of sailing boat...Harry] and taken to the nearby island of Kalimnos (Calino). Balancing this, Maj. Van Vliet destroyed a Bf109, probably that of Unteroffizier Jakob Herweg of III/JG27, who baled out and was also picked up about 20 km from Kos by an Italian boat which already carried some "Engländer". Herweg jumped overboard and swam to an Arado 196, when it alighted on the water near by (Ring p.275), but the intrepid Luftwaffe pilot lost his life a few days later when Mitchells raided Argos (Ring p.276)"

REF: Ring, H., Jagdgeschwader 27 (Motorbuch Verlag) Stuttgart, 1975.

Assuming Dr. Prien to be correct about Herweg on the 28th, I'm still left having to make the same conclusion, namely that Bassie was brought down by Löffler 10-15 km north of Kos on 27 September 1943. If he had been brought down SOUTH of Kos (where Martin & Orpen say the interception took place), then why would a sailing boat go out of its way to go to Kalimnos!? Take a look at the map on Google Maps. Again, if he was downed 1-2km from Kos, why would a Caique plod onwards to go to Kalimnos if Kos was a stone's throw away? Also, I'm not convinced an Arado 196 pilot would try to alight 1km from an enemy controlled coast to pick up an enemy pilot...makes no sense to me....and Bassie was adamant about the Arado trying to pick him up. Hence I say Bassie is the Löffler-10-15km-from-Kos case...and then it was NOT he who was in the boat with Herweg the next day.

The only other solution I see here is that Martin & Orpen have the date wrong. In that case all bets are off. The point is that they DO specify the losses on the 28th and do NOT confuse the loss of Bassie with those. For this reason I have taken the date of 27.9.43 as fixed.

SO, maybe Herweg was downed on the following day and NOT by Van Vliet. On the 28th Lt. E.M. Taylor of 7Sqn. SAAF baled out over the sea. Captain E.A. Rorvik was shot down and did not survive. Eight more 74Sqn. RAF Spitfires arrived at Lampi the afternoon, apparently in time for a 5.45pm Ju88 bombing run on the Lampi airfield escorted by Me109s.

Bassie never told me about an event in which he shared a boat with a German pilot....then again, he never told me the specifics of his baling out at Kos...and now it is 25 years too late.

He DID tell me about being intercepted by a Me262...but that's a story for another day.

Harry
Vancouver
CANADA

[NickM]

Guys:

This is TOTALLY Unrelated to the question of who shot down whom but what Allied base were these Spits flying from? I've vacationed on Kos YEARS ago & AFAIK the islands of the Dodecanese are QUITE far from any known allied base in North Africa or Sicily or even Southern Italy....

What's the scoop?

Thanks ahead of time

nickm

[HarryB]

Brian,

I have sent you another PERSONAL MESSAGE using the system of this forum. I've already tried sending you an e-mail using the forum system and it did not work. In the Personal Message I provide an off-site e-mail address which should behave like e-mail systems normally do.

Harry

[HarryB]

Brian,

I received your e-mail and responded on 1 October, but have heard nothing since. Are there still e-mail problems?

Harry

Originally Posted by HarryB

Brian,

I have sent you another PERSONAL MESSAGE using the system of this forum. I've already tried sending you an e-mail using the forum system and it did not work. In the Personal Message I provide an off-site e-mail address which should behave like e-mail systems normally do.

Harry

[HarryB]

Byron,

again, thank you very much.

Very interesting! The use of the flying boats/floatplanes is fascinating. My 38-year old high school German is causing me to struggle just a little, but I get the essence of it.

Harry

[byron-]

Does anybody know the first name of Leutnant Oschatz?