The Flying Tank: Ilyushin Il-2

[Sylvester Stadler]

The Military Channel presented an older program, which no doubt was
produced when Communism still ruled the old USSR, and which was
entitled The Flying Tank, an hour documentary on the Ilyushin Il-2.
The narrator reiterated the claim that Il-2 units, during the Kursk
battles of July 1943, destroyed 270 tanks of the 3rd Panzer Division
and in only twenty minutes destroyed 70 tanks of the 9th PD. No dates
were given for these astounding alleged achievements.

The best book regarding the German point of view on the Kursk battles
is Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis by Niklas Zetterling and Anders
Frankson which offers a wealth of accurate statistics on the German
Order of Battle and the strengths and losses of each German unit.
Another important work is The Battle of Kursk by David M. Glantz and
Jonathan M. House.

On 1 July 1943 the 3rd PD had a actual tank strength of 90 so the Il-2
certainly could not have destroyed 270 tanks. It is very common of
the Soviets to vastly exaggerate the German strengths in order to
rationalize their defeats and glorify their victories. The 9th PD had
a strength of 83 tanks that same date. During the time frame of 5-14
July 1943 (the length of the Kursk battles) the 3rd PD lost a total of
only 9 tanks destroyed (six Pz III and three Pz IV)! This is long way
from the claimed 270 tanks. During the same dates the 9th PD lost
only two tanks (both Pz IV). During all of July 1943 the 9th PD lost
a total of 25 tanks (7 Pz III and 18 Pz IV).

Geschichte der 3. Panzer-Division (Traditionsverband der Division) was
consulted and although several times the Soviet Air Force is
mentioned, the most that can be attributed thereto is more of a
nuisance value. No credit is given to the Il-2s as to anything
decisive. The most effective weapons in the Soviet arsenal are the
anti-tank mine belts, the anti-tank artillery fronts, and the
counter-attacks by the masses of T-34s.

It would have been interesting to learn from the documentary just how
great the losses among the Il-2 units were. The Il-2 was heavily
armored on the bottom of the aircraft but I believe that the Sturmovik
was vulnerable to cannon-fire from above, especially the six-gun Fw
190 (inc. four 20-mm cannon). My uncle, who was a rifleman in the 225th
Infanterie Division on the Russian front, once related his personal
experience of having the satisfaction of seeing eight Il-2s being shot
down by two Fw 190s (undoubtedly of JG 54) over the Kurland (Courland)
bridgehead during 1945.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Keeping in mind that the Germans and the Russians have different dates for the Kursk battle, Bergström in Kursk, The Air Battle: July 1943 states that from 5 through 31 July the Luftwaffe lost 681 aircraft of which 420 were total losses. He also states that between 12 July and 18 August the VVS lost 1,104 aircraft. Gorbach in Nad Ognennoy Dugoy states that the Russian 15th Air Army on the Bryansk Front lost 353 aircraft in July 1943, including about 16 Il-4 twin-engined bombers, 126 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 186 fighters, 20 Po-2 liaison biplanes and five reconnaissance aircraft. The 16th Air Army on the Central Front lost 535 aircraft in July 1943, all but 30 due to combat (aerial combat, Flak, missing and bombing raids). These 535 aircraft consisted of 48 Pe-2 twin-engined bombers, 38 Boston twin-engined bombers, 161 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 269 fighters, 13 Po-2 liaison biplanes and six reconnaissance aircraft. The 2nd Air Army on the Voronezh Front lost 437 aircraft in combat during July 1943, including 36 Pe-2 twin-engined bombers, four Boston twin-engined bombers, 166 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 228 fighters and three Po-2 liaison biplanes. The 17th Air Army on the South-West Front lost 256 aircraft in July 1943, including 17 Boston twin-engined bombers, 168 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 68 fighters and three night bombers. Out of this welter of figures one can see that the Russian losses were rather high and the Il-2 units suffered heavily.

Horrido!

Leo

[Franek Grabowski]

Overestimating of own successes is typical for any warfare, and I find this argument quite silly. I recall a rather hot dispute after an article that suggested Hartmann could score no more than 80 aircraft, so it works both sides. It is obvious, but then what is the purpose of this discussion? Nickname suggests it is not at all about history.

[kolya1]

Overclaiming was not limited to air-to-air combat. The same kind of remarks were formulated about Typhoon claims on tanks in Normandy. So I'd say it's not surprising...

A tank is a small, mobile, camouflaged and armored target. Besides, a damaged tank can very often be repaired because, unlike a plane or a ship, it doesn't crash or sink, so, if one is not forced to pull back immediately, it is perfectly possible to work on it. And, as Franek just said, overestimating results is common... All this taken together leaves plenty of room for erroneous claims.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by kolya1

Overclaiming was not limited to air-to-air combat. The same kind of remarks were formulated about Typhoon claims on tanks in Normandy. So I'd say it's not surprising...

A tank is a small, mobile, camouflaged and armored target. Besides, a damaged tank can very often be repaired because, unlike a plane or a ship, it doesn't crash or sink, so, if one is not forced to pull back immediately, it is perfectly possible to work on it. And, as Franek just said, overestimating results is common... All this taken together leaves plenty of room for erroneous claims.

Kolya: Indeed, for a tank can sparkle & smoke from hits & it's 'external stowage'(often the crew's camp out gear & personal sundries) could catch fire so it's easy to understand how somebody could think he 'killed' it--and given the fact that loitering over an armored column would probably make one VERY vulnerable to German AAA it's no wonder so many pilots were so 'optomistic' about their successes;

nm

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

Fascinating subject, as I am very interested in the Battle of Kursk both land and air. Last year I particularly enjoyed Christer Bergstrom's Kursk, The Air Battle; July 1943. I must say Bergstrom makes a compelling case for the effectiveness of the Il-2 - when it was properly employed en masse and in conjunction with the new PTAB bombs. I do not recall mention of large numbers of German Armoured Fighting Vehicles being claimed destroyed. In fact the actual number of AFVs destroyed in any attack was small, but these attacks by the Il-2s were very effective at disrupting and delaying the German advancing troops, blunting their own attacks and leaving them vulnerable to Soviet counter-attacks.

Leo.

If I may prevail on you for some extra information. Because of the different battle dates (as you noted) and possible insufficient or missing Soviet records Bergstrom's book has very confusing casualty figures at the end of his work. I wonder does Gorbach in Nad Ognennoy Dugoy give aircraft losses for the following air units that also figured in the Kursk battle to a greater or lesser extent.
1 VA (north of Orel)
5 VA (part of the strategic reserve)
ADD (the long-range bomber force)
PVO Strany (sections of the home defence air and AAA units)
Civil Air Fleet/Transport Fleet.

Anything would be of interest.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Martin

I can only add that according to Gorbach the 2nd Air Army on the Voronezh Front lost in August 1943 due to combat 29 Pe-2 twin-engined bombers, 102 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 166 fighters and five Po-2 liaison biplanes. The 5th Air Army on the Steppe Front lost in August 1943 due to combat 49 bombers, 84 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft and 85 fighters. I have also read that according to Ageev and Pentyukov in Air Forces in the Defeat of the German Orel Grouping, from 12 July to 18 August, the 1st Air Army on the West Front lost 190 aircraft, the 15th Air Army on the Bryansk Front lost 559 aircraft and the 16th Air Army on the Central Front lost 247 aircraft. Please note that this later source was published in 1949, therefore I have no idea if the information it contains is altogether reliable.

Horrido!

Leo

[Martin Gleeson]

Leo,

Many thanks for digging out that information.

Martin.

[Franek Grabowski]

I think the best source on Il-2 are books by Pervov/Rastrenin. I think I have seen an advert, that there will be something published in English.

[Dénes Bernád]

Il-2 Shturmovik Guards Units of World War 2 by Rastrenin, Oleg, Osprey, 2008.