Aircraft shot down 28 May 1941

[Brian]

Hi guys,

Perusing Chris Goss' excellent Sea Eagles Volume One, I notice a loss reported on 28 May 1941, when an aircraft was shot down by RN warships escorting a convoy located north-west of the western coast of Eire.

A report from the CO of HMS Tartar confirms the 'unidentified' aircraft crashing into the sea, of seeing one wing amongst the wreckage and mentions a subsequent rescue operation.

Chris says there were no Luftwaffe losses. I have checked Foreman's FC losses and Ross' CC losses. Was there a BC loss? If not, what was the aircraft?

A mystery!

Cheers
Brian

[Amrit1]

According to http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...bal-Tartar.htm

28th (may 1941) During return passage to Scapa Flow with HMS MASHONA came under heavy air attack 100 miles west of Ireland during which HMS MASHONA was hit and sustained major damage. After the stricken vessel capsized rescued 14 officers and 215 ratings and landed them at Greenock.

And the entry for the MASHONA

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...al-Mashona.htm

Under sustained and heavy air attacks and hit on port side in Boiler Room. Damage control to reduce ingress of water failed and ship had to be abandoned.

Capsized and sunk in position west of Irish coast (52.58N 11.3W). 46 of ship’s company lost their lives.

184 survivors rescued by HMS TARTAR and Canadian destroyer HMS ST CLARE.

and

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4431.html

While in company with HMS Tartar on 27 May 1941, German aircraft commenced bombing attacks on the two ships. One bomb found its mark and struck Mashona's port side, abreast of the forefunnel. It penetrated No.1 Boiler Room and exploded there, blowing a huge hole in the side of the ship. The air attack continued. As Mashona continued listing to port, her guns were hand trained to starboard. At least the crew would be able to fire at any target that passed overhead. To lighten the Tribal, all unnecessary gear was thrown overboard for a 45 minute interval but it was to no avail. Mashona was listing farther and farther with each roll. Orders were given to abandon ship. For an hour, there was a lull in the bombing. This gave Tartar an opportunity to pick up the survivors. Forty-six men had been lost in the action. The Tribal was now on her side and refusing to sink. Tartar fired a torpedo and missed. By this time, HMS Sherwood and HMCS St. Clair had arrived and they were ordered to fire at the hull. The shells hit, the trapped air rushed out and Mashona (Cdr. William Halford Selby, RN) slipped into the sea about 65 nautical miles east of the Aran Islands, Ireland in position 52º58'N, 11º36'W. Mashona's battle ensign was saved and now resides in the Cathedral of Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia.

It all seems to point to a German attack.

A

[Brian Bines]

The KG54 book says on May 28th 63 bombers took part in a search for the Home Fleet to the west coast of Ireland with 11 of these aircraft from II/KG54. The loss of B3+DC crew of Oblt. Erich Heinrichs is recorded as falling to Beaufighters while on ''Schiffziele bei Irland''.

Regards

Brian Bines

[Brian]

Many thanks Amrit and Brian

It would therefore seem to have been the victim of Beaufighters and not ships' AA fire.

Cheers
Brian

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

Hold your horses for a minute. The date quoted by Amrit from his internet sites are both the 27th and the 28th which indicates the naval action possibly took place during the night 27/28th of May.

Radtke lists the loss of II./KG 54 Ju 88A-5 on the 28th and to a fighter at Ireland (in the appendix), but looking inside the book on page 66 it looks like Heinrich was NOT on the major raid against shipping earlier in the day but on a second raid during the evening and in fact lost over England.

Foreman lists the same action on the night between 28/29th of May. On top he claims it was shot down by AA in the Thames Estuary which to my mind is quite a distance from "100-miles-west-of-Ireland".

In RAF Fighter Command only one Beaufighter scored at an unknown time during the night of May 28/29th and that was W/C Appleton of 604Sq who claimed a Heinkel 111 at Buckley

I know that Coastal Command operated Beaufighters as well at least in the beginning of 1942. Could they have operated Beaufighters as early as May 1941 and recorded any victory? And did really RAF fighters operate as far out as west of Ireland at this rather early stage of the war?

The general problem is the complete lack of times listed in all my second hand sources and in many cases not stating if it was day or night when an action took place.

I must confess I am just as puzzled as Brian is in his first e-mail...

Cheers
Stig

[Chris Goss]

OK gentlemen. The attack was daylight 28 May 41 consisting 63 ac:

14 from KGr 100 attacking 0825-1040 hrs
13 from I/KG 28 attacking 0910-1025 hrs and claiming the Mashona
1 from KGr 606 (nothing reported)
5 from KGr 606 attacking 1605 hrs
5 from KG1 attacking 1600-1710 hrs
10 from KG 77 attacking 1355-1455 hrs
3 from KuFlGr 406 nothing reported
8 from KG 54 nothing reported
4 from KuFlGr 406 nothing reported.

I/KG 28 and KGr 100 each lost a He 111 on take off; nothing was lost over the fleet.
The Germans reported intercepts by Hurricanes & Blenheims. CC reported meeting He 111 at 0950 hrs (254 Sqn); 0800 & 1025 hrs (502 Sqn); 1612 hrs (damaged by Slyne Head by 233 Sqn) 1624 hrs (Slyne Head, 233 Sqn destroyed); 2235 hrs (dam by 224 Sqn); 2315 hrs (dam by 224 Sqn)

[Brian Bines]

Stig,

My German is not so good but from page 66 ''Im Versammlungsraum in ca. 3800m hohe, in Sicht eines nach Norden ablaufenden Kreuzers wird er durch eine beaufighter abgeschossen''.
I thought this translates as- in the assembly areas at a height of 3800m in sight of a Cruiser heading northwards was he through a Beaufighter shot down ( any correction appreciated).
The Q.M's list show the cause and the place of loss of this Ju88 as unknown, three crew are shown as missing but it looks like the body of the Bs was recovered.
Would Radtke have access to diaries/NVM etc which might have more information about the loss of Heinrich's aircraft.
Just to add to the problem I believe W/C Gleed and F/O Watson in Hurricanes of 87 Sqd ( up from St.Marys Bay Scilly Islands ) claimed a Ju88 at low level as a probable, 60 miles south of the Scillies this day,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Chris B]

As a new boy may I ask the Forum for advice on the shooting down of an aircraft in Mounts Bay off Penzance. A RN records cites the destruction as being on 28 May 1941 (but I suppose the Germans could have logged it as 29 May if the loss was not noticed the loss until the following day).

The following extract is taken from the website of The Russian Convoy Club of New Zealand and was posted by Mr Bill Brokenshaw who was serving on the vessel in question, HMS Chiltern (or HMT Chiltern).

The link to the website is:
http://www.russianconvoyclub.org.nz/MyStory.htm

For the next 18 months we swept the Cornish and Devonshire coasts “collecting 47 mines in 20 weeks. Up to one third of our trawlers were lost to mines and enemy aircraft. On 28 May 1941 at approximately 2200 hrs while we were approaching our anchorage in Mounts Bay, Penzance, during an air raid a German bomber came within our range. With just one shell we were able to bring it down. Although the crew of the aircraft were able to release their life raft they were not able to save themselves. We picked up their life raft and a new type of radio was found which was capable of sending the position of a disabled aircraft which could be rescued. HMS Chiltern made headlines in the local papers and we were visited by the Air Marshall of the Royal Air Force. Skipper Jimmy Drake was now Lieutenant James Drake, RNR but to us he was always “Jimmy”.

My questions are:

is it possible to identify this aircraft;

if so are the details of its mission known?

are the details of the crew known?

or, even, is anything known?

Thank you

[DuncanM]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hi guys,

Perusing Chris Goss' excellent Sea Eagles Volume One, I notice a loss reported on 28 May 1941, when an aircraft was shot down by RN warships escorting a convoy located north-west of the western coast of Eire.

A report from the CO of HMS Tartar confirms the 'unidentified' aircraft crashing into the sea, of seeing one wing amongst the wreckage and mentions a subsequent rescue operation.

Chris says there were no Luftwaffe losses. I have checked Foreman's FC losses and Ross' CC losses. Was there a BC loss? If not, what was the aircraft?

A mystery!

Cheers
Brian

Extract from HMS Tarter's Report of Proceedings:

H.M.S. TARTAR'S APPENDIX II TO LETTER OF PROCEEDINGS DA TED
31atMAY, 1941
2. Owing to the frequency and intensity of attacks this report is of necessity made
largely from memory, no one having the time to record details while they were taking
place.
3. Weather conditions were as follows. Wind force 3 from North East. Sea and
swell 23. Cloud conditions varied considerably, the sky at times being clear and at
others heavy cloud down to about 4000 feet.
4. In the majority of attacks aircraft approached from astern, quarter or beam. No
attacks were made from before the beam. Attacks were either level bombing or shallow
dive bombing, bomb-release height being about 3,000 feet.
5. It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. Ill's. Occasionally a F.W.
Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the
attacks over a period of 13 hours.
6. It is not possible to say how many bombs were dropped altogether but 160
bombs were dropped close to "TARTAR," of these two sticks of five each failed to
explode. One of these sticks was within 20 yards of the ship's side.
7. Bombs were mostly dropped in sticks of five. They exploded on impact.
8. Full speed and full helm was used to confuse bomb aiming, the helm being put
over just before bomb release position was attained. At least 5 sticks were avoided in this
manner which would otherwise have fallen dangerously close.
9. Every gun was used, the 4.7" in controlled fire and the 4" and close range
weapons firing independently. 290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of
pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition were fired.
10. No damage was caused to "TARTAR."
11. The following points of interest which have already been communicated
verbally to R.A.D.40 were noted:
a. There was a tendency for bombs to be released late. Most misses were overs.
b. Attacks were all from abaft the beam.
c. Attacks were well pressed home despite heavy fire. Very few aircraft were turned
away though the gunfire evidently upset their aim.
d. There was a tendency to open fire too soon, although the aircraft were in range.
In a prolonged attack of this nature ammunition must be husbanded to avoid running
out. This tendency was checked in the later attacks.
12. At about 1000 "TARTAR" was engaging one H.E. Ill on the port beam at
about 3,000 yards range when one round probably from the 4 inch mountings was seen
to hit. Pieces could be seen falling away from the machine and a trail of smoke was
noticed. This machine flew on for about half a minute when it was seen to dive towards
the sea, the smoke increasing. On striking the water a large cloud of smoke appeared
and one wing could be seen sticking up. None of the crew bailed out. This aircraft was
originally reported as having been shot down at 1025 but subsequent investigation
shows that the time was nearer 1000.
13. Several other machines were thought to have been hit but there is insufficient
evidence to justify claiming any of them as "damaged."
14. The following remarks from the Commanding Officer, H.M.S. "MASHONA"
are of interest.
15. The report by "TARTAR" ... is the collated report on both ships.
16. Similar avoiding action to that taken by "TARTAR" was taken in
"MASHONA."
17. With reference to paragraph 5 the following difference was noticed in the attack
made on MASHONA in which the ship was hit.
18. The stick dropped consisted of six bombs, the centre two of which appeared to
be about 250 lbs. the remainder about 100 lbs. The 4th bomb, which hit, came down
approximately 200 feet out of the line of the remainder and in the direction of the ship's
turn. The flight appeared normal and the impression gained was that it was "aimed off"
at the last moment as the flight appeared normal.
19. The deflection may have been due to a bent fin but it is suggested that a pattern
of this kind with a deliberate "aim off" would be extremely difficult to avoid.
ON HIS MAJESTY'S SERVICE:OBSERVATIONS OF THE BRITISH HOME FLEET
FROM THE DIARY, REPORTS, AND LETTERS OF
JOSEPH H. WELLINGS ASSISTANT U.S. NAVAL ATTACHE LONDON, 1940-41
edited byJOHN B. HATTENDORF,

p237-238.