Bf109F lost 15 October 1941

[Brian]

Hi guys


On a website I have noted a combat loss of a Bf109F (WkNr.7677) of 4 (Eins) JFS5 on 15 October 1941 Le Havre area.

Please enlighten me!

Cheers
Brian

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hi guys


On a website I have noted a combat loss of a Bf109F (WkNr.7677) of 4 (Eins) JFS5 on 15 October 1941 Le Havre area.

Please enlighten me!

Enlighten you as to what?

BTW, this is listed as an E-7, not an F. It fits well into a range of other E-7 numbers.

[Brian]

Hi John

It surprised me that a Bf109 from the Fighter School was involved in a combat mission. Did the pilot survive?

Cheers
Brian

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

It is not necessarily true that the aircraft was lost in a combat situation (others might be able to give further information).

There are three aircraft of the unit listed as damaged/lost on this date:

WNr 7677:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113515

WNr 12691:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113516

WNr 5617:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113517

Initially there are no indications for an aerial combat in this list, usually the aircraft on combat patrol would have an 'E' in the list indicating this. The three losses for Jagdfliegerschule 5 on this date does not have this.

It woudl be of interest to see if a NVM exist for the pilot of WNr 12691, as it would probably tell us a bit more about the circumstances.

Note that I am not saying that it was no combat, I am just saying that the list and the loss reasons given does not state that it was.

And for your question re 7677: The pilot parachuted apparantly landing safely.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Chris Goss]

Experienced instructor pilots flew with JFS 5 and flew on ops hence Eins=Einsatz. Erik Mombeek's book on JG 2 and the Prien magnus opus details ops, kills and losses of JFS whilst on the Western Front in 1941

[Brian]

Thanks guys

My knowledge has been increased!

Cheers
Brian

[Jim P.]

The 3 Bf 109s per loss records, Mr. Prien and his co-authors:
Bf 109E-7, 7677, Resch, Ltn. Elmar, , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, weiße, 7 +, , , 15-Oct-41, WIA due to own Flak during Luftkampf. FSA., bei Epeuville per loss., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Harfleur, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109F-1, 5617, n.n., , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, , , , , 15-Oct-41, Landing accident., WNr. 5611, Bruchlandung at Octeville per Prien/Bock., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Fl.Pl. Le Havre, 65%, F, , ,
Bf 109F-2, 12691, n.n., , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, , , , , 15-Oct-41, Injured in crash., Ltn. Elmar Resch per loss., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Le Havre, 100%, F, , ,

[Brian]

Hi Jim

So is the outcome of this that both 7677 and 12691 were fired upon by own flak, with Resch baling out of the former, wounded, while the unnamed pilot of the latter crash-landed, injured/wounded?

Cheers
Brian

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Brian

I will check what is in the original on RL 2 III/781, and then await Jochen's answer with regards to Resch' Flugbuch.

RL 2 III/771 clearly state that Resch was wounded as the pilot of 12691, while an unnamed pilot bailed out of 7677 successfully without injuries sustained.

Hopefully a VLM or Resch' own notes will clear this matter, in other cases we will just have to live with the fact that we do not know beyond a reasonable doubt which aircraft Resch flew on this day.

BTW - any of you guys going to Speyer in October?

Regards,
Andreas

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Andreas,
gentlemen,

I have to come back to the losses of 5. (Eins.)/JFS 5 on October 15th, 1941, especially to the loss of Elmar Resch as it is recorded in his flight log.

Looking at it now, it is apparent that I have made a mistake in our loss list as the flight log contains the following information:

Flight no. x35, 7th Feindflug for Resch, Bf 109 F, ( white ) 7, scramble, Octeville at 13.16 hrs., contact with enemy, taken to parachute at 13.30 hrs. near Harfleur.

This of course means that you are right stating that Resch was flying Bf 109 F-2, WerkNr. 12 691, on that day and it also leads to the fact that this a/c was marked "white 7".

Sorry for causing you some extra work, the mistake was entirely on my side.

Regards

Jochen Prien