other P47 loses in European lakes

[markjsheppard]

Had a few hours to spare so went through the P47 loses that made reference to lakes.

Couple near lake Bracciano, Italy

One in/near Lake Constance
42-75155 P-47D-10-RE
510th FS 405th FG
Codes 2Z-?
Accident on 25/05/45 towards Lake Constance - Pilot : James A. Gilson - aerial collision.

One in Lake Massaciaccoli in Italy.
44-19667
P-47D-28-RE
350th
1° GAvCa
B2
Perdu lors d'un vol d'entraînement le 28/10/44 dans le lac Massaciaccoli (Ita.) - Pilote : Frederico Gustavo dos Santos

One in Lake Garda
44-20987
P-47D-30-RE
57th
65th
"BALLS OUT II"
MACR 14010 - 26/04/45 dans le lac de Garde (Ita.) - Pilote : Truman L. Allen - MIA - Flak

Near Wurmsee (Lake Wurmsee) Germany
44-33058
P-47D-30-RA
368th
397th
D3-?
Crashé le 19/06/45 dans le lac Wurm (All.) - Pilote : Kenneth G. Wenk - Défaillance moteur

Do we think any of these are still in the lake. Some of them are very large and surrounded by mountains.

Only the Brazilian machine seems to have been in the lake but it seems to be shallow so was no doubt recovered after WWII.

Just 'fishing'

regards

MS

[maxjvb]

i can add a P51 lost in Lake Garda in maj 1945, pilot Kenneth Leighton, never found. We are looking about P47 Balls Out, i will post you the results of research

[markjsheppard]

Maxjvb

Sounds interesting. Keep me informed.

regards

Mark

[DB601E]

Hi Mark,

i did some research concerning the P-47 in the "Wurm lake" today called "Starnberger See", near my hometown. The AC was salvaged,
i have published pictures and the history on my website:

http://www.abtauchen.com/pdf/P47StarnbergerSee.pdf

Specially the story behind the crash is very interesting :-)

There has been another P-47 in the close "Ammersee", but also salvaged.
I wrote an article about for Flugzeug Classic 2009/10:

http://www.flugzeugclassic.de/zeitsc...75&show=seite1

http://www.flugzeugclassic.de/zeitschrift.cfm?heft=432

Regards

Lino

[DB601E]

Forgot another link concerning the P-47 in the "Ammersee":

http://www.u-air.info/www/uair/uair....9?OpenDocument


Regards

Lino

[markjsheppard]

Hi Lido

Great articles.

Lost recovered and lost again. Shame they did not survive but great to see.

So what about Lake Garda and Lake Constance?

Bit bigger lakes. Know there was a lot of salvage from Lake Constance but have only heard about B17's and Lancaster's that I recall.

Thanks for the links.

regards

mark

[Erick88]

Great information guys, thanks for sharing it.

[markjsheppard]

Lino,

The 'other' one I know lots about - P47D-28-RA 42-29150 K4-S 'Dottie Mae' of 511FS, 405FG, 9AF - lost 8th May 1945.

www.alliedfighters.com

Make very good restoration progress.

regards

Mark

[Smithy]

Absolutely fascinating. Many thanks for the links to the articles.

No doubt there's a few more of these "old girls" to be found at the bottom of alpine lakes.

[DB601E]

Unfortunately there are only a few left to discover.

I'm searching since about 10 years underwater and in archives for missing AC in alpine lakes, but there are several problems:

1. In the years after war, metal scrap became very precious, so most of the known wrecks have been salvaged already these days. There was a succesfull salvaging company in our region. The company was formed by a former Army Pioneer and two former Luftwaffe soldiers. They salvaged almost every known wreck in southern bavaria, austria and switzerland. The scrap price for a B-17 salvaged 1951 from the Barmsee was about 20 000 Deutsche Mark, that should be today equivalent to about 400 000 US Dollars (Comparison based on prices for real estate). I was in contact with one of the salvage divers some years ago. (He died 2009). In his photo collection of salvaged aircrafts, i found almost every AC, i was looking for so long underwater doing severall hundred dives :-(
So i started a second research: Which aircraft have been already salvaged. This was even harder, compared to finding the ones crashed in the lakes, as there are sometimes no documents about a salvage, only the memories of old local people and the salvage divers.

2. Some lakes are very deep, and every spring, rivers bring so much sediment in some alpine lakes, that some wrecks are covered today with up to some meters of silt.

3. Some lakes are private or forbidden to dive because of nature protection.

4. Some AC crashed in the lake with high speed, breaking up in small pieces, so they are very hard to locate.

So finally, i know some AC seem to be still in the lakes and i don't have any information, that they have been salvaged already. But because of point 2, finding them will become very hard and so very expensive. But as i'm not Scrooge McDuck, i advance very slowly.

Regards

Lino