RAF Non-operational loss 21 March 1944

[Peter Randall]

As you can see, 8th Fighter Command is my speciality and having helped so many others out, I'm afraid that it is now my turn to seek assistance from my RAF specialist colleagues.

I am very interested in finding out as much as I can about an incident that occurred on 21 March 1944. It seems that an RAF aircraft (I’m told that a “bomber” came down in flames) crashed at Wimborne Road, Moordown, Bournemouth. I am also told that it was on an authorised non-operational flight and the crash was not caused by enemy action. I know that at least one civilian was killed on the ground at No 1027 Wimborne Road.

Can anyone please help me find more information concerning this loss. I am particularly interested in finding details of the aircraft involved, total of casualties of both crew and civilians, and any names that could be added would be a welcome bonus. I assume that the local press would have reported the incident and no doubt the local beat Bobby would have written it up. I would be extremely grateful for any details at all that will help me add to my knowledge concerning this incident

Many thanks in anticipation.


Peter

[Amrit1]

The aircraft was Halifax JP137 of 1865 HCU. There's is quite a good description here:

http://www.wintonforum.co.uk/halifax.html

A

[Icare9]

It's been reported on the Halifax forum as being a Ferry flight by 301 F.T.U / O.A.D.U to the Med. On 22nd March JP107 took off on a similar flight, landing at Celone near Foggia and 614 Sqdn, so JP137 could have been doing the same.

Most RAF crew were buried near their homes. McGregor being RCAF was buried at Brookwood Military cemetery. There are a number of other RAAF etc casualties, none allocated a Squadron, that may have been aboard, but all previous evidence has only come up with a 5 man crew. Was that usual for long distance ferry flights?
Can anyone provide details about :-
Name: GREEN, KENNETH
Initials: K
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 20
Date of Death: 21/03/1944
Service No: 1674977
Additional information: Son of Walter Henry and Jane Ellen Green, of Hull.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Compt. 227. Grave 24.
Cemetery: HULL NORTHERN CEMETERY

Some reports talk of 7 crew, others of 3 civilian deaths

[Peter Randall]

Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough. The URL gave exactly the information that I was looking for. I was searching on behalf of a very dear friend whose relative was in fact Mr Chislett, one of the deceased civilians. I knew that I could rely on this forum to provide the necessary information. The members here can always be relied upon and are to be commended for their public spirited attitude.

Peter

[paulmcmillan]

Can only find 2 Civilian deaths ...

DOROTHEA BENNETT - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=3110980
PERCY FREDERICK CHISLETT - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=3110998

[Peter Randall]

Many thanks for looking Paul. Much appreciated.

Peter

[Graham Boak]

The JPxxx series of Halifaxes had the final standard of fin, which cured the fin stall problem.

Reports of fire being seen are common after aircraft crashes, even when none such are known to exist.

Neither of these comments should be read as casting doubt on the pilot, just as adding a note of caution to your theories.

[Arjay1949]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

The JPxxx series of Halifaxes had the final standard of fin, which cured the fin stall problem.

Just goes to show how difficult it is for us to be definitive on the facts!

We have JP137 down as a MKII Series 1, not a MK II Series 1A, and the second record card actually describing the fact that the rudders had not been modified to cure the stall problem. (copy attached)

Yet you say the JPXXX range were fitted with modified rudders, making them MK II series 1A aircraft ??

Back to the drawing board for us, I think!

Thanks for this new info!

[Observer1940]

Originally Posted by Arjay1949

Just goes to show how difficult it is for us to be definitive on the facts!

We have JP137 down as a MKII Series 1, not a MK II Series 1A, and the second record card actually describing the fact that the rudders had not been modified to cure the stall problem. (copy attached)

Yet you say the JPXXX range were fitted with modified rudders, making them MK II series 1A aircraft ??

Back to the drawing board for us, I think!

Thanks for this new info!

On the Accident Card shown it is a Mk II and does not have the modified rudders. I also see the reference to a wing dropping and a "spin".

Generally, there was rudder overbalance and it is recorded that the first Halifax Rudder Modifications did not solve the problem according to the A & AEE in 1943:-

"When rudder locking takes place, the rudder overpowers the ailerons completely and the aircraft rolls over to the side in which the rudder is applied. At the same time, the nose drops, and the aircraft enters a spiral dive."

"If the Pilot pulls the control column back as the aircraft rolls over and drops its nose as he would instinctively do then the controls are set for a spin and, unless action is taken quickly ... a spin may result."

"In any case there is a large height loss of anything up to 4,000 feet during recovery."

If he had recently taken off, he would likely not have enough height to recover the aircraft. That is why the Inquiry is saying the modification is really required.

Generally with an engine problem more rudder is also applied to maintain track, so if an engine was on fire and the Pilot needs more rudder any problem with rudder overbalance / locking is likely to be compounded.

During 1943 tests, they tried limiting the rudder travel and also thicker cord on the rudder trailing edges, to make them feel heavier to the Pilot and hopefully prevent the rudder reaching the overbalance stage, but the thicker cord did not improve the rudder locking characteristic. The rudders were considered too heavy for general flying and the thicker cord made the rudders unpleasantly heavy according to the A & AEE.

They next tried some factory modified rudders which were tested and these also suffered from overbalance troubles.
Rudder limit stops were recommended and more training of Pilots in recovery techniques in No.4 Group.

However, the problem was only really settled with a new larger redesigned 'D' fin area (40% larger fin area) and rudder combination and when tested there was no tendency to overbalance in various flight conditions.

This aircraft did not have the modified rudders and I feel you can clear the Pilot of blame. Also sufficient height to attempt a recovery was likely insufficient and if an engine was also on fire, his problems were made worse.

Mark

[Arjay1949]

Many thanks for those observations. It does seem from eyewitness accounts that there was an engine fire, although there appears to be no mention of that in the 'official' accounts.
The AHB has confirmed that the original Court of Inquiry notes no longer exist, but we are hoping there may be some mention of the observed engine fire in the Civilian Inquest records. We are currently awaiting those.
There has been a renewed interest in trying to clear the pilot of any blame, following the publication of the story of the Memorial in the Daily Mail and Telegraph recently. Hopefully we shall be able to obtain enough evidence to get the RAF (or should that be MoD?) to amend the records.

The recent reversal of the Mull of Kyntire Chinook decision seems to have acted as a stimulus.......