20 OTU

[hecate]

My uncle P/O David P.R.Cameron was killed when his Wellington crashed just after takeoff from 20 OTU Lossiemouth on 20 May 1945.I have plenty information about the crash itself but cannot find anything about my uncle's service before this as the RAF will not release his Service Record for 90 years (they acknowledge me as next of kin but "for operational reasons"will retain his information.Anyone who was stationed at Lossiemouth towards the end of the war might know of him and I would be very grateful for any information.He was married two days before his death to a young WAAF,Joan Allinson,and again I have no information about her-my family would love to find out if she is still alive.

[Mikkel Plannthin]

I suppose you have his promotions from London Gazette ?

14.09.44 P/O (prob.) from F/S
18.03.45 P/O (prob.) confirmed and F/O (war subs.)

Regards

Mikkel Plannthin

[Icare9]

Name: CAMERON, DAVID PEACOCK ROBERTSON
Initials: D P R
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Flying Officer (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Date of Death: 20/05/1945
Service No: 186773
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. E. Grave 856.
Cemetery: EDINBURGH (MORNINGSIDE) CEMETERY

Name: MAWBY, CECIL GEORGE WALTER
Initials: C G W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 20
Date of Death: 20/05/1945
Service No: 1894889
Additional information: Son of Leonard Basil and Elsie Florence Mawby, of Ealing.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. Q.Q. Row D. Grave 13.
Cemetery: SOUTH EALING CEMETERY

Name: RICKARD, RONALD ARTHUR
Initials: R A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Flying Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 28
Date of Death: 20/05/1945
Service No: 187301
Additional information: Son of Arthur Percy and Annie Lillian Rickard, of Manchester; husband of Marjorie Iris Rickard, of Blackley, Manchester.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 20.
Cemetery: MANCHESTER CREMATORIUM

... would seem to be other casualties that day, perhaps also part of the crew?
You say you know the circumstances of the crash so presumably others survived (No Australian, Canadian or NZ deaths seem to fit).

Is he the Flying Officer D Cameron, DFM, of 635 Squadron, one of S/L Bazalgatte's crew when he gained a posthumous VC 4th August 1844? If so, he was also part (when a Sgt and awarded the DFM for his actions) of another VC pilots crew, F/Sgt R H Middleton in November 1942. Do you have any confirmation of any of this? Age? if he was under training, then unlikely to be the same man. His Service Number, however does seem to be close to that of F/O Rickard who was 28 and might therefore indicate that he was a seasoned veteran.....

Especially poignant as by then the War in Europe was over.....

[Larry]

Has anyone got the serial number for this Wellington? I presume by 1945 it would have been a Mk X

[Icare9]

Found a thread on WW2 Forum: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air...ssiemouth.html

This aircraft, a Wellington Mark 10 (Trainer) Serial NC594 A1-W of No 20 OTU,Lossiemouth was up at 0952 on an air test and crashed into the top floor of council housing at Seatown, Lossiemouth, killing Mrs J Flood and five of her sons and two members of the Allan family.

It looks as if the crew numbered three (since it was an air test) and all were killed.The Wireless Operator was F/O D.P.R. Cameron who ironically was also screened aircrew,that is, had completed his tour or tours on air operations and had been posted to an OTU as experienced aircrew to be involved in OTU training.

The pilot was F/O R.A Rickard who was also a screened pilot and would be a Pilot Instructor at 20 OTU.The other crew member was Sgt C.G.W Mawby.

The cause of the crash was an engine which became apparent became defective immediately on take off. Witnesses testified to the engine continually misfiring.Presumabily the aircraft was intending to return to base from a track over the sea when it crashed.

Detail from W.R.Chorley.B.C. OTU losses

and unfortunately it appears that it crashed into houses killing 8 local civilians.

On its previous sortie, this aircraft had made an emergency landing with port engine trouble. After several ground runs, no fault could be found and the aircraft was scheduled for an air test. Immediately after take-off and at a height of 300 feet, one or both engines failed or lost power and the aircraft was seen to be pitching fore and aft, out of control.

The pilot attempted an emergency landing but the aircraft crashed into a block of houses at Church Street, Seatown on the eastern outskirts of Lossiemouth village. The civilian casualties were all resident in one house with Mrs Flood and four of her sons being killed in the upper floor immediately the aircraft crashed. Her husband rescued his 11 year old daughter, whom he succeeded in dropping to other rescuers in the garden below. He then carried his youngest son to a window, with the intention of doing the same but an explosion took place and the boy died. Mr Flood was blown from the building but escaped with minor injuries, whilst Mrs Allen and her daughter were also killed as a result of the initial impact.

P/O. Ronald Arthur Rickard. Pilot
P/O. David Peacock Robertson Cameron. Wireless operator.
Sgt. Cecil George Walter Mawby. 20

Mrs. Joey Flood. 37.
Master Jack Flood. 14.
Master James Flood. 12.
Master Sinclair Flood. 7.
Master George Flood. 5.
Master David Flood. 3.
Mrs. Edith Allen. 66.
Miss Vera Allen. 19.

Following details from http://www.unithistories.com/officer...icers_C01.html

Cameron, David Peacock Robertson. Born: 1887 ?? Glasgow, Scotland ?? - 20.05.1945. buried: Edinburgh (Morningside) Cemetery, E.856
F/Sgt.? 1368808, then commissioned, RAFVR (General Duties Branch) emergency commission as P/O (probation) 18.09.1944 with Service No.186773; confirmed as P/O on 18.03.1945 and promoted to F/O (War Substantive) 18.03.1945
20.05.1945: Wireless Operator/Air Gunner, No. 20 Operational Training Unit RAF (Killed on Active Service) when Wellington Mk X NC594 A1-W crashed during an air test into a house shortly after take off from RAF Lossiemouth.

[Alan Clark]

This seems to be a worrying turn for RAF Disclosures, "Operational Reasons" seems to be the ultimate catch all for we can't be bothered right through to it is closed for security reasons. I for one would be after a full set of reasons why they cannot provide at least a basic transcript of the units he served with, if none was forth coming then it would be MP time (elected 'representatives' rather than snowdrops).

The way round it is to try and trace his service through the Operations Record Books (held by the National Archives) of the units he served with. The best place to start would be the 20 OTU ORB. As an officer he should have been listed in the record when he was posted in to the unit and with any luck it will stated where he came from. You can then check that unit and go further back. It often doesn't work with non-commissioned personnel so you may not get very far as I see that he was commissioned shortly before his death.

[hecate]

Thanks to all.I'm getting a lot of help from a very dedicated team whose names I can see on this site but work seperately.David was only 22 (almost 23) when he was killed and he joined up at the outbreak of war,having beeen in the RAFVR.Even by wartime standards,he must have been a very young flyer.He enlisted at 15 but is this possible/legal or did he lie about his age?What is the minimum age one can join the RAFVR at?

[Icare9]

Err..... Just checking the CWGC site and neither the Flood nor Allen families appear, yet they should be commemorated.

Having gone to the extent of having a Memorial dedicated to this accident, can anyone explain why these innocents appear to be Non Commemorations?

[Alan Clark]

As the crash was after VE day the recording of civilian casualties in the UK would almost certainly finished, it might be worth contacting the CWGC for clarification.

The Civilian War Dead category was used for the victims of enemy action, normally bombing / missle attacks, and civilian employees of the different branches of the military, eg staff from the likes of Air Works and airfield construction companies who worked on military sites and died as a result of accidents.

I have come across other cases of people being 'missing', one being a 12 year old who wandered into the coastal minefield around the air station at Millom in May 1942.

Edit: I have checked the CWGC website and found this:

"Civilian War Dead Roll of Honour
During the Second World War, the Commission was given the task of compiling as complete a list as possible of Commonwealth civilians whose deaths were due to enemy action. The complete roll of some 66,400 names is bound in seven volumes and kept near St George’s Chapel in Westminster Abbey, where a different page is displayed each day."

[Icare9]

Have had the civilian deaths clarified but whilst the crew do, the families do not fall within the CWGC remit.