Typhoons at the Hochwald Gap

[macmullin]

I have been doing a little research for an aviation painting I would like to create. The theme & topic is mainly about the Hawker Typhoons who helped out the 4th Canadian Armour by attacking the 116th Panzer Division during Operation "Blockbuster" at the Hochwald Gap (Between Feb 28 and April 1st 1945).

I have been trying to find out what RAF, RCAF or RAAF squadron(s) took part in this helpful offensive. At this moment I have failed to come up with any information. If anyone can help me out it would be appreciated.

[Chris Goss]

Try putting this on the Allied as opposed to Luftwaffe site?

[Graham Boak]

Start by looking for books/works on 2nd Tactical Air Force, which will identify the units in France at the time. Many aviation histories, sadly, do not identify just which bit of mud was being moved at any one time, concentrating on the aerial battles, whereas many Army accounts barely mention air support at all. The advantage of air power is its flexibility, so that any of the units present could have taken part in this battle. However, the split of responsibility means that your best bet will be the Canadian Typhoon units, wich had a specific responsibility to the Canadian Army.

Try Googling for RCAF in 2 TAF for the period.

[macmullin]

I downloaded a PDF of the Classic 2nd TAF Vol 1 to 3. In vol three I managed to find out the air support for the 4th Canadian Armor of the 1st Canadian Army was 2 TAF 84th group. This does narrow down my search to now four Typhoon wings. Now, first within in 84 Group - what wings or squadrons were in this group, and second, out of those who used rocket firing Typhoons?

[tcolvin]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

However, the split of responsibility means that your best bet will be the Canadian Typhoon units, which had a specific responsibility to the Canadian Army.

Try Googling for RCAF in 2 TAF for the period.

Graham, your advice is incorrect.
There was no connection on national lines.

The connection was between RAF Groups and Armies.
In 21 Army Group, comprising 2 British Army and 1 Canadian Army, 83 Group was tied to 2 British Army, and 84 Group was tied to 1 Canadian Army.
Operation Veritable (which covered the Hochwald) was the responsibility of 1 Canadian Army, which had almost the entire British Army under command.
During this extensive operation which lasted a month and when 2 British Army had almost no troops (it was planning Operation Plunder), 83 Group operated mostly on the German side of the lines.

Tony

[macmullin]

Thank you guys for your replies, I your input is very important to me. One thing I found out last night reading from Classic 2 TAF Vol 1 (Page 120)


2 TAF 84 Group

As of June 5, 1945 just before D-Day had the following structure

123 Wing: 198 and 609 Squadrons Typhoon Mk.IB stationed at Thorny Island

136 Wing: 164 and 184 Squadrons Typhoon Mk.IB - stationed at Thorny Island

146 Wing: 193, 197, 257 and 266 Squadrons Typhoon Mk.IB – stationed at Needs Oar Point

The only thing is what did 84 Group look like almost a year later - with it's players changing teams like professional sports?

Clinton78 Yes I am a member at two of the sights (Mil-Art and Military Mesheshs) the third I have never seen - I will have to take a look at it, thanks. :-)

Juergen your discovery is wounderful... we all know now that 193, 266 and 609 squadrons from 84 Group were on the ball field during that time period

Tcolvin its also great to know the chances are 83 Group kept their noses out of the 84 Groups business.

This is fun... WWII version of the Game Clue! :-)

[Chris Thomas]

Hi McMullin. I was co-author of the 2ndTAF series. You can track the squadron movements in and out of wings in the Wings appendix at the end of Vol.3. By 1945 there were two Typhoon wings in 84 Group; 123 Wg which had absorbed the two 136 Wing sqns (ie. then comprising 164 (FJ), 183 (HF), 198 (TP) and 609 (PR)) and 146 Wing (193 (DP), 197 (OV), 257 (FM), 263 (HE) and 266 (ZH)). 257 Sqn disbanded 5 March 45.

All the 123 Wg units were RP-equipped. By Feb/March 45 all the 146 Wg units were bomb-carrying, except 263 that used RP.

One of the problems you have is that there are no detailed reports for close-support actions as for example, air combat. If you came up with a specific date it would be possible to find which units were involved from 2ndTAF daily summaries (at the NA, Kew), then going to the unit ORBs (NA) for, hopefully, more detail.

It might be better, certainly easier, to recreate a generic scene by reading up on the tactics employed by RP squadrons. I could supply you with serials and corresponding codes for any of the units in the correct time frame. If you can lay your hands on Vol.4 of 2ndTAF, there is a chapter on tactics, with others on weapons and markings which you might find useful. Markings at the time in question were pretty standard - all invasion stripes and the Sky rear fuselage bands were overpainted, spinners were Night (effectively black) and roundels in all positions were what are sometimes referred to as 'C1' ie. narrow white rings and narrow outer yellow rings.

One problem you might have, if illustrating several aircraft, is that the RP sqns in particular operated a mix of new and updated aircraft, so there were 3 and 4 bladers, large and small tailplanes, two different types of RP rail etc. I wrote an article on this topic in Model Aircraft Monthly, July 2009, Vol 8 Issue 7. If you cannot locate it drop me a PM with your email.
Chris Thomas

[macmullin]

Graham : I am not really aware of how E-book companies work, their polices, and practices on how they pay royalties to publishers and their authors. If the publications they are offering are unauthorized by the publishers and their authors - I am not aware of this.

Many of the books I have downloaded in digital format (and I have liked) – I have purchased. For example; I would have never been able to start developing the Stephen Butte's work “My Best Day” with out John Manrho and the late Ron Putz's book 'Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe,s Last hope' (by the way it's a very nice book) - I downloaded it first to see if it would met my needs and then I purchased it on line. The chances are I will do so again for this Classic 2 TAF collection if it is still in print – because I can see that it will serve me well in my future work.

Chris: Thank you so much for the wonderful information and for taking the time to talk to me. I am sure this will help me come up with some ideas for a piece. I will also check out your article in Model Aircraft Monthly in regard to the different RP rails in late version Tiffys. By-the-way I do love the books.

Dale MacMullin

[Graham Boak]

You will find this information in other pages of the books - although as the Canadian close-support units were in 83 Group I'd check your information before going any further.

[macmullin]

I must agree with you completely, I will also explore the other volumes and books for more information. I am only in the first phase of gathering information for this new project, along with many others. It is not always so easy to get started until someone with more experience, and knowledge points you in the right direction.

I received my Fine Arts Degree here in Canada at Mount Allison University in printmaking & painting during the early 80's. I gained a small reputation 20 years ago locally with post-modern works of art. I feel I created these art works to impress, to get along, and be counted with my piers - but it never seem to please me. I always like the high realism paintings I created in traditional egg tempera before I went to school.

In the middle of the 90's I got married and had a family. I stopped painting for many reasons. For one, I felt I had no direction with my art career and was wasting my time, and second I had more important responsibilities to my family and friends. Now the children are on their own, and I have more time to start back into painting - I am doing so.

I have always been an aviation fan all my life. I have spent endless hours drawing, and making model military vehicles & aircraft as a child - well into my teens. I have finally come to the conclusion to pull the two together "painting and military & aviation".

The painting project that I am presently have on the drawing board is a Spitfire Mk.XVI (very early none bubble canopy version) of Canadian RCAF P/O Stephen Butte of 403 Squadron Titled: "My Best Day". During Operation Bodenpatte, P/O Butte shot down three German aircraft over the Haren - Evere aerodrome that early-clear morning. I have posted one of preliminary drawings for anyone who might be interested. :-)