Lancaster JB149

[squawk]

Good afternoon,

I wonder if colleagues with expertise regarding RAF and Luftwaffe history may have knowledge of this Lancaster from 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna which was lost over Berlin on 3/4th September 1943.

I understand that no trace of the aircraft or 5 crewmen was found and they remain missing presumed killed. There are a number of lakes around Berlin which may contain remains of this aircraft and the crew? We would like to identify a crash site if at all possible.

Statements from the surviving crew add little to what we know.

Any information from colleagues in this forum would be appreciated.

Many thanks and best regards,

"Squawk"

[ssg keay]

Squawk, there are more lakes around Berlin then I have hair on my head (no, I am not bold). Off and on, someone finds a plane in one of the lakes. Your biggest problem is that she might have crashed on land, or exploded in the air. Also, most lakes are shallow and if a bomber dives into a shallow lake, it will be under meters of slick and sediment. Danny

[squawk]

Thank you for taking the time to respond - I half expected that if the crash site was that easy to uncover, it would have been by now and a colleague would have a note of it. "Missing" they must remain.

Best regards,

"Squawk"

[Reiner]

Hi Squawk!

It could be that the five men lies as "unknown airman" on a war cemetery!

Rene

[Alex Smart]

Hello "Squawk",
Hope you had a great Christmas and are looking forward to a Merry New Year.
JB149
Lancaster III
"SR-R2"
Crew were -
F/S. F.J. Hammond - POW
Sgt. F. D. Paddon - KIA
Sgt. G. S. Fairbairn RAAF - KIA
F/S. R. J. Singer RAAF - POW
Sgt. K. W. Sedman - KIA
Sgt. W. A. Southwell - KIA
F/S. A. J. Pepperrell RAAF - KIA
Those who died are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
Two other 101 Sqdn Lancasters were also lost this night, ED410 and ED659.

Alex
ref: BCL vol4

[Icare9]

Hi and welcome squawk.
Presumably you have some additional information to suggest lakes around Berlin as a possible crash site?
Most aircraft and crew that remain as Missing have to be inferred as crashing into the North Sea, rather than into a fairly small or shallow lake, where by now, most have been searched and anything potentially associated with a WW2 bomber recovered, if only to ensure no nasty munitions left to go "bang" unexpectedly.
2 of the crew were RAAF, so there is a strong possibility that additional information may exist in the Australian Service files, which I believe can be released upon application and payment of a fairly small fee. (No doubt other more expert Pals will advise the proper course of action, if you don't find it by "Search"!) especially as one was a PoW.
Did he complete a debriefing on how and where he believed they were shot down?
If there are details as to where he was first held, what camps he went to, then it may be possible to at the very least rule out the North Sea (if they baled out well inland, could the aircraft have reached the coast?).
Most wreckage that fell in Occupied Territories would have had "helpful" locals to report its location, once they were liberated.
it may simply be that the aircraft was destroyed by a mid air explosion, crashed detonating its bomb load with little wreckage remaining or simply crashed into the target area and destroyed by subsequent bombs.
Hope that helps...

[squawk]

Hello Colleagues! Thank you all for your advice and apologies for the delay in posting. Now snow free, broken things replaced/repaired (among other tasks and responsibilities), I am back to doing interesting things again!

Following this through on behalf of another researcher, it was he who was given the lead about the lakes. Knowing of a Wellington which crashed over a shallow Eastern European lake and remained uncleared until the 1990s, I had an open mind on the suggestion. The "Unknown Airman" graves are certainly a possibility, as is the effect of explosions on any recovery activity.

I understand the Australian files have been checked to little effect, and the survivors when asked during the war by Red Cross could add little more detail.

I am due an expedition to the National Archives in the Spring to check the Liberated POW Questionnaires in case more information was forthcoming then.

Thank you all again and a rather late Happy New Year!

"Squawk"

[Bandlaw Charlie]

As ICARE says, you're very fortunate to have had an Australian POW as the relevant authorities of the time always carried out fairly extensive post war investigations into the causes of the crash and its possible location.

The Australian Archives are I think far ahead of the current British military archival system based at Innsworth in Gloucestershire...where no one except the individual in question or very close relatives are allowed to access personnel files....with written permission of course......pretty stupid when you are talking about events that occured more than 60-70 years ago....and with the distinct possibility that the person in question is well and truly dead....the average age of a second World War soldier is now 91, after all !!!!

Anyway, I'd better hop off my high horse and give you some details..
Here's the website:
www.naa.gov.au

Go to Name Search...enter the name of the chap, and then select World War Two in the drop down menu or Category of Records menu...

Have a go and Good Luck to you....!!!!!

cheers,
Andy.

[squawk]

Thanks Andy. I agree and could add to what you say about the attitude of the UK Authorities compared to Canada Australia and New Zealand, but my blood pressure pills are running low!

That does not take away from the dogged and dutiful work done by many members of the MRES after the war.

I will check the Australian records myself just in case anything has been overlooked by my colleague.

Many thanks for your advice,

"Squawk"